Difference between blaming “white people” and blaming Jews is the numbers. White people are the majority, it’s not an existential threat. Jews are 2% of the American population, it’s an existential threat once you start blaming things on us. There’s also something of a magical quality assigned to our (perceived) power, not just us rigging a system for centuries.
Nick G was pushing Kmele on that point, and I think he quantified that it’s about our treatment of each other only (or maybe mostly) in terms of race (subjective measure), especially in the media. Majority doesn’t equal power (see South Africa). But if we allow free flowing race speak in any direction we’re just being subjective about how to police it and the results are detrimental (see Ethiopia right now).
I heard Nick mention the percentages and I hadn’t thought about the connection between us (Jews) living largely in New York and being near these industries (I.e. I work in publishing). And Moynihan mentioned the conspiratorial nature of antisemitism (that was my “magical” comment).
When I hear people blaming “white women” (which, technically, I would fall under) it’s irksome and I roll my eyes but I don’t feel threatened. When Kyrie Irving promotes an antisemitic conspiracy theory about us being the biggest slavers, I start wondering if my passport is up to date. That’s a big difference.
That said! As a Jew, I think breaking people up into racial categories is a horrible idea and has played a part in exacerbating our polarization (and the splintering of the left). So I absolutely agree with Kmele on that point, that we should really start taking a hard look at that vitriolic framing -- but! Different with the Jews 😉
"The (Jews/ Whites/ Blacks/ Asians) are overrepresented in (academia/ the media/ the government/ c- suites) because of (systemic racism/ affirmative action/ space lasers)"
At least the sex thing is solved. The DEI cult conflates sex with gender. So, one can self identify in to whatever gender category is most marginalized, claim to be the victim of that marginalization & win whatever prize is being offered. This has the benefit of eliminating the gender pay gap. One can merely self identify into whatever category gets the highest pay.
Grievance culture produces so many clever, creative, funny people. I can't believe we waited so long to embrace it.
What a lineup....I don't think any of those talking points will be hit...this will be a podcast about why Husker Dü's influence on The Hold Steady is over-stated, or how Chance the Rapper's Christianity is redolent of Dylan's Christian period or [insert weirdly insightful and totally unrelated obscure pop culture reference here].....and I can't fucking wait.
Fetterman probably should not have agreed to debate in the traditional manner, and of course following a stroke voters should question his cognitive and decision-making abilities-which could be temporarily or permanently impaired.
But whether or not he can speak properly doesn’t have anything to do with that.
As a neurosurgeon I can assure you it’s more complicated than that. He certainly has expressive aphasia, but by report has auditory receptive issues as well. Almost every stroke victim I’ve treated has lost some IQ points as well. I don’t want a surgeon who had a stroke operating on me. I don’t want a stroke victim representing me in the senate either.
I think Moynihan was using disability to refer to chronic, relatively stable medical problems. One example might be someone who uses a wheelchair after a stabilized spine injury. Or someone who's lost their sight early in life.
Kmele's issue seems to be that other stupid ideas and actions haven't been treated the same as Kanye's stupid ideas and actions. There is no government coercion, the free market is at work. Isn't that what Kmele ultimately wants? You can criticize others not getting same amount of heat without laying down what pretty damn close to a defense of a loud-mouthed moron (Kanye).
100%. And this is not in defense of Kanye. Coleman briefly mentioned jay electronica who essentially dedicates his only album to Farrakhan, with Jay Z appearing on almost every song. Won’t hear a peep about that.
Awesome convo. Coleman was a pleasant surprise! I love Hughes and subscribe to his podcast. Gillespie I hadn't been aware of but he's clearly a highly intelligent, articulate thinker. I wrote down that book, too, African Founders; I may have to read that one. Reminds me of Thomas Sowell. Two big points I wanted to comment on:
1. They brought up a good point about Kanye and race essentialism/contemprary American racial thinking. It's funny (and bizarre) how white woke people seem to be playing right into White Supremacy tropes in order to "make their point" about the "racism" of "white people." (I use quotation marks because WTF do these words even mean in 2022?) Megan Kelly made a similar point on her podcast in 2020: Obsessing about race and representation brings race into the pre-frontal cortex; it makes us all think obsessively about race like we never have before, at least in modern times.
Therefore, yes, some people are going to cross the line in public ways (Kanye); it's going to get nasty. I don't think anyone can be or even should be colorblind; I think we should all collectively, of all races, admit that we notice race (of course we do) and that we have thoughts/feelings/judgments about other people and this is normal and human. What's NOT normal is to ACT on those thoughts and impulses. This all boils down to the cliche of virtue-signaling and the puritanical insanity of thinking we are "higher" or morally "better" than we are. We're human beings, with character flaws and weaknesses; always have been, always will be. Let's own it.
2. I agree that the free speech fiasco we're in is tricky. I had a debate with a Substack reader on here a week or so ago. His view was that anything should be allowed on platforms. (Including dropping the fully-spelled-out "N-Word.") Many on the left, of course argue the exact opposite: Many of them feel anyone who they disagree with or they see as "evil" (another boldly subjective term) should be removed, de-platformed, destroyed.
I am closer to the first understanding, but more between the two. As so many have already said: Private platforms like FB and Twitter have every right to decide what to do with individual people. This isn't the government; these are private platforms. That said: I totally agree with Moynihan: Mein Kampf, for example, SHOULD be allowed to exist and be seen and read and discussed not becuase I agree with the book (obviously I don't) but becuase if we erase history (enter the 1619 Project) we lose sight of why certain genocidal problems occured to begin with. History repeats itself, as we know. But if we erase all unpleasant history, revise it all to some Woke standard, what happens in the future? We need Mein Kampf, and books/ideas like it, so that we can see how grotesque and disgusting true racism is, and we can criticize and judge it accordingly. Take all the "bad" stuff away and we are bound to make the same mistakes again. By "we" I just mean human civilization. So my point is: Yes, platforms should be able to remove individuals in certain cases; and also yes, the standard for doing so should be incredibly rigorous. It has to be much, much more than viewpoint disagreement, or even taboo.
This episode took it's dialog direction from those late 70's early 80's films (Close encounters, Jaws) where everyone talks at the same time. The only thing missing is everyone having a cigarette hanging out of their mouths. :D
Can someone outline Kmele's argument about Kanye for me, please? I was trying to follow, but couldn't track it. Everyone generalizes so it's hypocrisy for people to come down so hard on Kanye's generalizations? But Ye's generalizations are still bad and deserve some form of punishment because they're built on anti-semitic tropes and prejudices? But not the level of punishment he's been subjected to the past week?
To use Kmele’s parlance, he fetishzes Kanye’s work and impact. Kanye is just a celebrity running his mouth. He is more than ‘just a celebrity’ in that Kanye does present stronger and more frequent indications of having mental health issues, but this is reason to disregard the actual words coming out of his mouth and not reason to devote so much podtime to him.
Aside from whether you see or agree with any or all of that, Kmele has almost literally (pre-millennial definition) said ‘when [Kanye] said [this] he actually meant [that]’. Like Kmele is Kanye’s press secretary. Let Kayne speak for himself, (just as most of us think the Dodderer in Chief should be allowed to cognitively dodder for himself and spare us the bullshittery of KJ-P and/or Psaki and/or McEnany and/or the Shuck and/or Spicey, etc.) Let Kanye speak for himself and bless me with the ability to return to my willful ignorance of his life.
But, more than any of this, in my mind this is akin to the OMGSTFUABOUTBASEBALLMATTANDMICHAEL and the OMGSTFUABOUTBOOMERMUSICMATTANDMICHAEL convulsions portions of the Fifthdom experienced a while back. It's feedback. Why is this taking up so much TFC bandwidth? Especially with the guests on this episode. It’s not my taste.
Kanye is saying that "Jews are overrepresented in so many categories. That is wrong and there could be a deeper reason"
Kmeles has consistently, and many have said too much, argued on the pod that the "essentialist" way people talk about race is gross. Kmele then draws a parallel and says, "If you take all the systemic racist rhetoric and replace the word Jew with the word white, this is what Kanye is saying. And it's funny that the same disgusting opinion is shared by both groups, but Addidas runs to advertise one and runs away from the other."
I, frankly, found it eye opening when he stated it. Editing in the MSNBC clips clarified it. And now I realize how broken Kanye is, but how the current climate may have helped him break in this racist way.
Yeah, I was getting bored and frustrating with the conversation until they finally hit that crescendo, and then it became thought-provoking, and I think a good framework to use in future analysis of various DEI-inspired arguments.
I agree 100% that the point he ended up reaching--finally, in this episode--was a valid and thought provoking one. But it was built more by the three other people than it was Kmele. And that wasn't even the narrative he was trying to weave.
Trans ideology is not like race hierarchy. To think that it is is insulting. When it's one sex that commits something like 98% of sexual assaults (mostly against females, mind you) and you can't see why we need our own single sex spaces, do us a favor by working on making all men's restrooms gender neutral and leave us out of it.
Coleman Hughes voice is so sublime. If he is reading his own audiobook, I may buy two.
Kmele had a brilliant week.
For Bari Weiss's pod, Kmele moderated a debate between Rafael Mangual & Lara Bazelon on criminal justice reform. If you care about the subject, this is a must listen, podcast. The debaters are fantastic and Kmele has a real talent for putting any agenda he has aside & being objectively, intellectually curious.
Kmele's ability to seek diverse opinions & open up dialogue on tough, tribal subjects, gives a cynic like myself, some hope for the future (provided we don't all get nuked in the next week).
Difference between blaming “white people” and blaming Jews is the numbers. White people are the majority, it’s not an existential threat. Jews are 2% of the American population, it’s an existential threat once you start blaming things on us. There’s also something of a magical quality assigned to our (perceived) power, not just us rigging a system for centuries.
Nick G was pushing Kmele on that point, and I think he quantified that it’s about our treatment of each other only (or maybe mostly) in terms of race (subjective measure), especially in the media. Majority doesn’t equal power (see South Africa). But if we allow free flowing race speak in any direction we’re just being subjective about how to police it and the results are detrimental (see Ethiopia right now).
I heard Nick mention the percentages and I hadn’t thought about the connection between us (Jews) living largely in New York and being near these industries (I.e. I work in publishing). And Moynihan mentioned the conspiratorial nature of antisemitism (that was my “magical” comment).
When I hear people blaming “white women” (which, technically, I would fall under) it’s irksome and I roll my eyes but I don’t feel threatened. When Kyrie Irving promotes an antisemitic conspiracy theory about us being the biggest slavers, I start wondering if my passport is up to date. That’s a big difference.
That said! As a Jew, I think breaking people up into racial categories is a horrible idea and has played a part in exacerbating our polarization (and the splintering of the left). So I absolutely agree with Kmele on that point, that we should really start taking a hard look at that vitriolic framing -- but! Different with the Jews 😉
We need to play horseshoe theory madlibs.
"The (Jews/ Whites/ Blacks/ Asians) are overrepresented in (academia/ the media/ the government/ c- suites) because of (systemic racism/ affirmative action/ space lasers)"
At least the sex thing is solved. The DEI cult conflates sex with gender. So, one can self identify in to whatever gender category is most marginalized, claim to be the victim of that marginalization & win whatever prize is being offered. This has the benefit of eliminating the gender pay gap. One can merely self identify into whatever category gets the highest pay.
Grievance culture produces so many clever, creative, funny people. I can't believe we waited so long to embrace it.
What a lineup....I don't think any of those talking points will be hit...this will be a podcast about why Husker Dü's influence on The Hold Steady is over-stated, or how Chance the Rapper's Christianity is redolent of Dylan's Christian period or [insert weirdly insightful and totally unrelated obscure pop culture reference here].....and I can't fucking wait.
Really hoping Chance starts doing drugs again. I mean, GOD DAMN....and I'm saying that aspirationally here.
"When the praises go up, the blessings come down" nearly, retroactively ruined Acid Rap for me. Coloring Book really was *that* corny.
The Jacket is a guest?! Can't wait to listen to this!
Gillespie and Coleman? Pretty stoked to listen to this one later, two of my absolute favorites
I response to today’s opening few minutes:
Strokes cause brain injuries.
Brain injuries can cause aphasia.
Expressive aphasia (what Fetterman has) is not indicative of intelligence or cognitive ability.
Aphasia is a disability both by medical and legal standards.
https://www.biausa.org/public-affairs/media/what-is-aphasia
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/disability.html
https://adata.org/faq/what-definition-disability-under-ada
Fetterman probably should not have agreed to debate in the traditional manner, and of course following a stroke voters should question his cognitive and decision-making abilities-which could be temporarily or permanently impaired.
But whether or not he can speak properly doesn’t have anything to do with that.
As a neurosurgeon I can assure you it’s more complicated than that. He certainly has expressive aphasia, but by report has auditory receptive issues as well. Almost every stroke victim I’ve treated has lost some IQ points as well. I don’t want a surgeon who had a stroke operating on me. I don’t want a stroke victim representing me in the senate either.
This study shows that 44% of these stroke victims had cognitive impairment 3 years post stroke https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/90/4/436
Whether or not you would vote for a stroke victim seems like it should depend on the individual circumstances and alternative voting choices
Yeah, aphasia in a report doesn't preclude cognitive problems. (Internist in a previous career).
Thought the confident assertion that he doesn't have a disability was weird
I think Moynihan was using disability to refer to chronic, relatively stable medical problems. One example might be someone who uses a wheelchair after a stabilized spine injury. Or someone who's lost their sight early in life.
Catastrophic strokes can continue to evolve.
He could absolutely have a disability now. No reason to confidently assert otherwise without intimate knowledge of his medical condition
Kmele's issue seems to be that other stupid ideas and actions haven't been treated the same as Kanye's stupid ideas and actions. There is no government coercion, the free market is at work. Isn't that what Kmele ultimately wants? You can criticize others not getting same amount of heat without laying down what pretty damn close to a defense of a loud-mouthed moron (Kanye).
Forget replacing Welch, expand the fifth with Coleman and Gillespie
Five on the Fifth!
Hot take: it’s entirely because Kanye is a Trump supporter. People like Desean Jackson didn’t get this level of reaction.
100%. And this is not in defense of Kanye. Coleman briefly mentioned jay electronica who essentially dedicates his only album to Farrakhan, with Jay Z appearing on almost every song. Won’t hear a peep about that.
Awesome convo. Coleman was a pleasant surprise! I love Hughes and subscribe to his podcast. Gillespie I hadn't been aware of but he's clearly a highly intelligent, articulate thinker. I wrote down that book, too, African Founders; I may have to read that one. Reminds me of Thomas Sowell. Two big points I wanted to comment on:
1. They brought up a good point about Kanye and race essentialism/contemprary American racial thinking. It's funny (and bizarre) how white woke people seem to be playing right into White Supremacy tropes in order to "make their point" about the "racism" of "white people." (I use quotation marks because WTF do these words even mean in 2022?) Megan Kelly made a similar point on her podcast in 2020: Obsessing about race and representation brings race into the pre-frontal cortex; it makes us all think obsessively about race like we never have before, at least in modern times.
Therefore, yes, some people are going to cross the line in public ways (Kanye); it's going to get nasty. I don't think anyone can be or even should be colorblind; I think we should all collectively, of all races, admit that we notice race (of course we do) and that we have thoughts/feelings/judgments about other people and this is normal and human. What's NOT normal is to ACT on those thoughts and impulses. This all boils down to the cliche of virtue-signaling and the puritanical insanity of thinking we are "higher" or morally "better" than we are. We're human beings, with character flaws and weaknesses; always have been, always will be. Let's own it.
2. I agree that the free speech fiasco we're in is tricky. I had a debate with a Substack reader on here a week or so ago. His view was that anything should be allowed on platforms. (Including dropping the fully-spelled-out "N-Word.") Many on the left, of course argue the exact opposite: Many of them feel anyone who they disagree with or they see as "evil" (another boldly subjective term) should be removed, de-platformed, destroyed.
I am closer to the first understanding, but more between the two. As so many have already said: Private platforms like FB and Twitter have every right to decide what to do with individual people. This isn't the government; these are private platforms. That said: I totally agree with Moynihan: Mein Kampf, for example, SHOULD be allowed to exist and be seen and read and discussed not becuase I agree with the book (obviously I don't) but becuase if we erase history (enter the 1619 Project) we lose sight of why certain genocidal problems occured to begin with. History repeats itself, as we know. But if we erase all unpleasant history, revise it all to some Woke standard, what happens in the future? We need Mein Kampf, and books/ideas like it, so that we can see how grotesque and disgusting true racism is, and we can criticize and judge it accordingly. Take all the "bad" stuff away and we are bound to make the same mistakes again. By "we" I just mean human civilization. So my point is: Yes, platforms should be able to remove individuals in certain cases; and also yes, the standard for doing so should be incredibly rigorous. It has to be much, much more than viewpoint disagreement, or even taboo.
Michael Mohr
"Sincere American Writing"
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
This episode took it's dialog direction from those late 70's early 80's films (Close encounters, Jaws) where everyone talks at the same time. The only thing missing is everyone having a cigarette hanging out of their mouths. :D
Can someone outline Kmele's argument about Kanye for me, please? I was trying to follow, but couldn't track it. Everyone generalizes so it's hypocrisy for people to come down so hard on Kanye's generalizations? But Ye's generalizations are still bad and deserve some form of punishment because they're built on anti-semitic tropes and prejudices? But not the level of punishment he's been subjected to the past week?
It's a little hard to understand Kmele with Kanye's b*lls I'm his mouth. Does he owe Kanye money or something? If so, it must be an awful lot.
Care to add some substance to your criticism?
Trigger warning: poor sentence structure, grammar, and punctuation. Probably spelling, too.
To use Kmele’s parlance, he fetishzes Kanye’s work and impact. Kanye is just a celebrity running his mouth. He is more than ‘just a celebrity’ in that Kanye does present stronger and more frequent indications of having mental health issues, but this is reason to disregard the actual words coming out of his mouth and not reason to devote so much podtime to him.
Aside from whether you see or agree with any or all of that, Kmele has almost literally (pre-millennial definition) said ‘when [Kanye] said [this] he actually meant [that]’. Like Kmele is Kanye’s press secretary. Let Kayne speak for himself, (just as most of us think the Dodderer in Chief should be allowed to cognitively dodder for himself and spare us the bullshittery of KJ-P and/or Psaki and/or McEnany and/or the Shuck and/or Spicey, etc.) Let Kanye speak for himself and bless me with the ability to return to my willful ignorance of his life.
But, more than any of this, in my mind this is akin to the OMGSTFUABOUTBASEBALLMATTANDMICHAEL and the OMGSTFUABOUTBOOMERMUSICMATTANDMICHAEL convulsions portions of the Fifthdom experienced a while back. It's feedback. Why is this taking up so much TFC bandwidth? Especially with the guests on this episode. It’s not my taste.
This is my two cents.
/R
I'll restate what I heard:
Kanye is saying that "Jews are overrepresented in so many categories. That is wrong and there could be a deeper reason"
Kmeles has consistently, and many have said too much, argued on the pod that the "essentialist" way people talk about race is gross. Kmele then draws a parallel and says, "If you take all the systemic racist rhetoric and replace the word Jew with the word white, this is what Kanye is saying. And it's funny that the same disgusting opinion is shared by both groups, but Addidas runs to advertise one and runs away from the other."
I, frankly, found it eye opening when he stated it. Editing in the MSNBC clips clarified it. And now I realize how broken Kanye is, but how the current climate may have helped him break in this racist way.
Yeah, I was getting bored and frustrating with the conversation until they finally hit that crescendo, and then it became thought-provoking, and I think a good framework to use in future analysis of various DEI-inspired arguments.
I agree 100% that the point he ended up reaching--finally, in this episode--was a valid and thought provoking one. But it was built more by the three other people than it was Kmele. And that wasn't even the narrative he was trying to weave.
He's a fan of the man's music and other work, so doesn't want to immediately condemn someone who is important to him. It's not hard; we all do it.
Just started, but "you look like a Turkish phony" made me laugh really hard.
Trans ideology is not like race hierarchy. To think that it is is insulting. When it's one sex that commits something like 98% of sexual assaults (mostly against females, mind you) and you can't see why we need our own single sex spaces, do us a favor by working on making all men's restrooms gender neutral and leave us out of it.
Coleman Hughes voice is so sublime. If he is reading his own audiobook, I may buy two.
Kmele had a brilliant week.
For Bari Weiss's pod, Kmele moderated a debate between Rafael Mangual & Lara Bazelon on criminal justice reform. If you care about the subject, this is a must listen, podcast. The debaters are fantastic and Kmele has a real talent for putting any agenda he has aside & being objectively, intellectually curious.
https://www.honestlypod.com/podcast/episode/ddc39346/has-criminal-justice-reform-made-us-less-safe-a-debate
Kmele's ability to seek diverse opinions & open up dialogue on tough, tribal subjects, gives a cynic like myself, some hope for the future (provided we don't all get nuked in the next week).
He's an excellent match for the Honestly pod!