That's what I thought. As an attorney, I thought it was too soon for any charges. Based on how complex the facts are it likely will be weeks until all of those involved are charged or indicted. People might want him to be charged but New York’s discovery rules based what is currently known and any new evidence found are in any potential defendant's favor.
You guys did a great job mentioning how multiple people were involved in the incident. That most likely has complicated bringing any future charges. And a few minutes or snippets of the present video hardly is evidence that would be enough to prove any defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Google "don't choke 'em, smoke 'em Portland Police" for a fun, racially charged chokehold story, from 38 years ago. There's no new news, just variations of the old news.
Yes, but you are spot on with your jury comment. Think about hoe long jury selection will take as they ask who had had an incident on the subway or with a homeless person. That is almost everyone I know in NYC.
As much as the pod is a pick-me-up, the aftermath of the NYC subway incident — that is, *this* NYC subway incident — serves as yet another depressing reminder that there’s no end in sight for America’s race essentialism.
When I heard that the word “lynching” is being used by some to describe the man’s death, I immediately thought of Biden’s remarks after a White House screening of the film ‘Till,’ in which he said, “Some people still want to do that.” This is the what cynical, stupid politicians and a fearmongering press want the easily-influenced hoi polloi to believe. They want to foment unrest. They seem to relish it.
Oh god I just looked her up. She’s a wanna be AOC with her socialist agenda and red lips 💋 !!!! 😱 I didn’t think it could get any worse. I need to leave this state.
What a fucking poser and how embarrassing for her inevitable impending pro-Palestine pivot. In Mexico City, we have a very accomplished (non-faux) Jewish woman as our mayor. She has a PhD in physics and energy engineering and a share of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. She's one of the favorites to be the next president of Mexico. Her name's Claudia Sheinbaum, and she's probably my favorite politician ever.
Yes, but why do so many people fall for it?! That’s what upsets me - yes we have stupid politicians and a fearmongering press but also a bunch of “educated” stupid f’ing idiots!!!
Fear of being forced into one side in our dichotomous culture. There is usually considered to be only two sides, us and them. If you're not with us, well then you have to be with them. It's what prevents many liberals from realizing that much of the "woke" critique of society is actually a radical critique and thus just as much an attack on old-school liberalism as it is on conservatism.
But they seem to be ok with taking one side. Are you saying they fear falling into the “other side”? I just don’t think they’re thinking critically on an issue-by-issue basis. More of a top down versus bottom up approach. If you have a core set of values, if you stick to those, you should be able to navigate issues and end up where you land - whether that’s considered “right” or “left”. Like with this subway incident, the video we’ve all seen shows at least two big guys subduing Neely, and we know he was shouting threatening things and throwing stuff. Looks like they thought they were doing the right thing by stopping the guy from hurting anyone or himself. It’s as plain as day if you have any common sense. But then the people with pulpits, like the media and AOC and Al Sharpton jump to the wildest and worst conclusions, calling it a racist act, a lynching, murder and call for these guys, who were clearly acting in self-defense or defense of others, to go to jail. And a whole slew of people, from all over, who’ve never even stepped foot in a NYC subway car, so they have zero context, join the crazy chorus. What happened to facts matter? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? What happened to self-defense? The power players give their followers false reason to believe that racism against black people is rampant, that the justice system is broken, that criminals are the real victims. Lies!!! And people mindlessly accept these nihilistic fantasies that are being spoon fed to them to keep them desperate for more or something. It’s just sickening and shameful. What are the core values steering their lives? From here it looks like gutter values or none at all. And I don’t know what we can do about it.
I'm saying that people are pushed into these all-or-nothing, one-sides positions because to be at all critical of one side invites the Twitter mob to brand you as an arch-representative of the other side. If you are on the Left you have to be part of the Kendi anti-racism brigade because to criticize Kendi will get you. Ramses a white supremacist. If you are on the right you have to join Chris Rufonin trying to ban discussion of ideologies because to criticize Rufonwill get you branded as a Marxist corrupter of children.
The subway incident is also a good example. The official narrative on the Left is the the country and white people are essentially white supremacist so any interaction between white and black people by definition is going to reflect that narrative. To deny any specific incident of it is to deny the narrative, which to them is the same thing as denying racism exists.
It works on the Right too. They will tell you that police are by definition keepers of law and order. Because of this they have a right to use deadly force whenever they feel their lives are threatened. But as keepers of law and order their lives are always being threatened so any use of deadly force by them in any situation is by definition justified.
As I type, protesters are in the subway. Literally on the tracks. Insanity!!! This is what I’m talking about. I’m frankly shocked (no 3rd rail pun intended) at how many people have drunk the far-left kool-aid. How has a tragic incident, with what appears to have involved no mal-intent - just an awful situation and accident - turned into this crazy town circus?! I’m legitimately frightened for our future.
One of the reasons I have pretty much stopped commenting on cultural and political topics elsewhere on the Internet is every time I would do it through my usual lens of saying that opposite sides are really mirror images of each other I would quickly realize that the people responding weren't listening to a GD thing I said and were simply consigning me to the most extreme of whatever group they hated. I have literally had the experience of saying that I think cancel culture is real, giving examples, and then saying that it is just another form of censorship identical to what the Christian Right did for decades, and had someone respond that they can just tell from my words that I want to kill all blacks, gays, and transsexuals. And that was a pro wrestling board!
I think if they legitimately thought he was an imminent threat to themselves or others in that subway car, that he died is a tragic ending but would not negate a defense of self-defense. How is one supposed to know how much pressure a psychotically energized person can tolerate - enough to incapacitate but not enough to cause harm? A victim should not be held to that standard when he/she is reacting in real time to a dangerous situation with adrenaline pumping. We can clearly see that at least one other man was needed to restrain Neely. I think it’s quite reasonable to assume the Marine here had practiced that chokehold before on fellow Marines/friends, men who were similarly healthy and strong. Neely was very likely in a physically weakened state, probably under-nourished and frail from drug abuse. Perhaps that is why he succumbed, along with his stated willingness to die. It’s possible his body just gave up. Also Marines are, in general, imbued with a sense of duty to serve and protect, and this Marine appeared to be operating under that ethos. Of course this is all speculation, and I agree we need to wait for all of the facts. I also believe some guesses are better than others and subscribe to the occum’s razor philosophy. I believe this Marine and the other men involved truly thought they were doing the right thing by subduing what they saw as a real threat and averting serious injury or worse to themselves or others.
However, I disagree that there's no end in sight for America's race essentialism. The media and politicians are certainly into it. However, American's trust in those groups are plummeting. I expect that race essentialism will always exist to some degree, but I think the center of gravity is shifting back towards not being super racist.
Also, there have been a lot of ousting recently of prominent race essentialists and several large media companies are trying to pivot away from those grifters.
But yeah, I accidentally checked the Twitter coverage of the "lynching" and it was just full on deranged. Someone tweeted (I think a media org) a headline that made it seem like some white dude saw a black dude saying he was tired of being hungry and was like "n-slurs complaining about being hungry? Can't have that bullshit"
I don't see how anyone could be hopeful about that issue. It feels like it will be a change of generations rather than minds will be the only way the culture moves on. Doesn't seem like something that will happen in our life times.
Sadly, I agree. My non-scientific estimation is that it will be 10-20 years before we cycle through this, if we ever do. But I think that too much damage has already been done.
I will be dead before it happens, but I have a suspicion that in a couple of generations young people will rebel against their elders by starting a fad where they will start constantly calling each other by all of our currently forbidden racial slurs, and anybody that tries to censor them for it will be considered an out of touch old fogey who is just part of a past, clueless generation.
Speaking of Albini, he had one of the dumber tweets re: the NY subway incident: “I don't know about you, but if I could spend $100 to keep somebody from being strangled to death, I'd happily hand over $100. So if you see someone in distress in public, before you strangle them to death, consider just giving them $100.”
The question is how many people have I seen in a similar state of public distress that the homicide victim was reportedly expressing before the headlocker got hold of him. I would estimate that number easily in the three digits.
It seems to me Tucker clearly noticed something cruel and insane arising in his soul and called it out in order to refuse it and by doing so, transcend it.
I'd be happy to do that so long as Albini gave me the $100 first. With inflation the way it is not all of us are exactly carrying around a spare hundy in our wallets.
Why can’t people acknowledge that they weren’t there, they weren’t the subject of this man’s threatening behavior, and to hold judgment? It was clearly a tragic incident all around. The guys who subdued him had to think quick. That society had continually failed this man was left in their hands at that moment. People and their judgments suck. That’s my judgment.
Free minds and free markets? 🤨 The willful dumbassery of this. Somebody died, many people were in a dangerous event, and Twitter activists use it to promote their fucking brand.
Yeah, I still visit NYC pretty often, but I haven't been on the subway since March 2020, when I went to the Fifth Column meetup at the Bleecker Street Bar (i.e, the "Superspreader Event")
Can you flesh that out a bit more? Like, are you making a choice not to ride the subway out of fear for your safety, essentially? These are good-faith, non-rhetorical questions, just in case that needs to be said.
Because as a New Yorker who needs to get from place to place, I don’t even know how I’d do so without the subway a lot of the time—and I have a car! So I’m curious, in a totally nonjudgmental way, about a) why you’re avoiding the subway, and b) how you’re getting around when you’re here. I care a lot about the subway and its future, because the city I love would seize up and cease functioning without it, so I take every opportunity to hear people’s thoughts about it. (I have my own thoughts, but y’know, I already know what those are!)
I don’t feel comfortable taking the subway at night anymore (I mostly attend evening and nighttime events). I rent a car and stay at a hotel in New Jersey or with my family in Scranton, PA.
Aww heck, just for you guys. Several of these are rapes at gunpoint and rape / assault of young teens. Not included are they myriad stories, some of which are reported, others are not, of people just jacking off, groping someone, or assaulting someone. SEPTA's hell. It's always been pretty rough, but has gotten a LOT rougher since covid. I've personally intervened in several platform fights and been sexually assaulted by a group of young teens.
I love the lads, and I really do believe that the MTA has deteriorated in quality and safety recently. However, every time I go to NYC, I'm awed by how clean, safe, and orderly the MTA is compared to SEPTA. I see cops on almost literally every platform in NYC. I literally haven't seen a cop on SEPTA in over a year.
Interestingly (and reassuringly for many of us Philadelphians), almost all of this is concentrated on two lines (Market-Frankford and Broad Street Line) and to a lesser extent in the underground trolley stops. Light rail and busses have been fine to the extent I know them, even in some of the worse parts of town (well, West Philly; I have no reason to step foot in the Wastelands). Maybe a certain kind of predator feels more empowered in underground or elevated stations, as opposed to street-level ones. Maybe the predictable climate that invites the homeless. Or perhaps it's a territorial issue with police (I recall hearing that campus police is not allowed to patrol underground SEPTA stations in campus, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's a, pardon, cop-out).
In either case, the result is a "split-screen effect" where a lot of us see well-functioning infrastructure while the rest sees a violent hellscape. I am not going to lie and claim that this is what pushed me out into the suburbs, but now that I live there, the comparison alone is reason enough for me to never look back.
Context for non-Philadelphians: Philly only has two proper subway lines: the MFL and the Broad-Street Line. So yeah, basically our subway is fucked. Also important context: SEPTA services a large segment of south-eastern Pennsylvania (hence "SEPTA), so funding and control is largely in the state's hands, despite something like 80% of the ridership living / commuting to Philadelphia.
I think you might be on to something about jurisdiction. I think SETPA cops are even worse funded / experiencing greater shortages than Philly cops. Either way, you're right about the buses and trolleys (and I presume NHL). I transitioned to taking almost exclusively busses over the past few years as they are reliably safer and cleaner. Busses are a perfectly fine experience, actually. Regional rail is a treat.
The exception to this is taking the Night Owl busses. Last time I took the MFL Night Owl, the dude directly behind me started smoking crack. When he was politely asked to not smoke crack on the crowded bus, he went off to the effect of "you're just bigoted. You wouldn't have a problem if I was smoking cigarettes or weed, but because I'm smoking *crack* you have a mother fucking problem".
If the entire national news media were headquartered in Center City Philadelphia, I promise you’d hear a hell of a lot more about that than you do, and yeah, it’s a LOT worse. Hell, St. Louis, where I recently spent two years, is WAY worse; the murder rate one year I was there was the *highest in North America*. New York needs to reverse this trend, no doubt about it, but it continues to be a very safe big city (THE safest, unless something’s changed), outside of some of the rough neighborhoods that have been like that for as long as (and much longer than) I’ve been alive.
Agreed, they and https://cwbchicago.com/ were my go tos back when I was still in chicago. If you wanna know what the crimes be doin, those two gotcha covered. :D
heheh yeah I saw your other comment and felt compelled to be the "chicago checking in guy" but the depth and breadth of chicago level stupid is just too much to really get after. I do wonder what the other team crime cities (LA, Atl, DC, etc) would report as their greatest hits. I would include my neighboring Detroit but well to have truly shocking crime you need a foundation of victims and Detroit is going through a slump in that population. :D
Like anything picked up by the media these days, it’s hard to tell what average New Yorkers actually think. The NYT comment section on this story was a source of sanity for once. Seems like average NYers are fed up. In the absence of public order this will continue to happen as people start to step up to fill the void. It’s horrifying that this man was killed, but it’s also horrifying that he was allowed to wander the streets and threaten anyone and everyone around them with no apparent consequence. Expecting regular people to just endure it, while never knowing if they are any real danger or not, is an insane expectation.
The “race angle” makes it all the more ridiculous because if the races were reversed, the internet would be in full “fuck around and find out, lol” mode. It’s all such a sad and stupid state of affairs.
Bring back the state mental hospitals! They closed them way back in the sixties and we have to admit the experiment failed. Society cannot absorb mentally ill people. Admit this and open the state hospitals again.
When the NKVD went into Poland to take their share of the country after the German invasion, they opened the prisons, told the inmates to go and rob and kill the rich, and then filled the jails with the bourgeois who weren’t so psyched about having their shit taken.
What’s happening in several major cities in the US today has the same odor.
To be fair to Trevor Noah (now there's a phrase I don't utter very often) ratings for pretty much everything on network TV and basic cable have been cratering for years. Except for NFL football, I guess.
Side note: remember when the CTE/concussion issue really came to the fore a few years back, and people wondered if it was the beginning of the end for the NFL? Fast forward to 2023 and not only does the NFL still dominate TV ratings, but there are *two* spring leagues, each with major network backing, battling it out. (Go Battlehawks!)
Richard Pryor was in "Wild In The Streets," the AIP movie about a rock star becoming President and sending all the over-thirties to re-education camps, in 1968. I can't say it's a *good* movie, but it really shows a counter-counter-cultural side of the sixties that's been kind of overlooked.
I found this episode incredibly peculiar. Michael says at one point that people who are upset about the subway incident would insist that there should be a mental health professional (which is stated in a minimizing way as though that isn’t a solution) and then flatly states that because their solution isn’t disciplinary/ police than this isn’t a solution...
I work every day as a mental health professional with people that talk to themselves, have criminal records and/or open criminal cases, don’t complete their ADLs, some are homeless, using substances, chronically suicidal, etc. and may very well cause havoc on the MBTA and the reason the work I do is not as effective as it could be is because we are underfunded, and undervalued by people just like here that think police are the best solution.
I work with several people that have been trapped in a cycle of incarceration and then treatment and then incarceration. The reason incarceration (especially for someone with psychosis) is not a solution is because it sets a person back in their treatment sometimes so dramatically as to erase all the work that has already been done. It’s an extremely short sighted approach.
Furthermore, I think y’all need to read the peer reviewed studies on mental health before you spout on about stuff. I don’t see a discrepancy between how people knew this deceased man and how he was in the moments before his death. A person can have suicidal ideation and seem to others happy and jovial. Most people who experience auditory, visual or sensory hallucinations are not a threat to others.
I find it so bizarre and puzzling that you all sound right on the money when you discuss most public policy, and then sound like you’re reading from the DSM II when the mental health field has moved along quite substantially. I say all of this as a Szaszian and Foucauldian oriented person.
I mean, I've rotated in psych ED, and if a patient was behaving the way this person was, I would certainly have armed guards come and restrain him. And if I was working in an outpatient setting, I'd IVC him. There is no way I would try to talk with someone who was behaving in that manner.
When I heard about this story, the first thing that came to mind for me was an incident a few years ago in Australian where a mentally ill man firebombed a bus (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-10/manmeet-alisher-bus-driver-killer-unfit-for-trial/10092612). People who are this acutely ill are extremely dangerous, and should be treated as such. Involuntary commitment is better than prison, but it does involve physical force and coercive measures.
Sure. But, in the community on the subway vs. a psych ED, inherently there would be a different response. In the psych ED they’d restrain the person in a manner that would be least restrictive and non-lethal, and then administer haldol. If a non-public health official, social worker, cop, EMR, etc. puts someone into a restraint and inadvertently kills them attempting to replicate what they think best practices looks like, I think we can call a spade a spade. This isn’t what happens in psych EDs today, and when it does FIRE, ACLU, IJ, et all rightfully come to the defense of the person harmed.
Again though, lol, there’s a pretty sizable difference between providing CPR or helping someone choke, and restraining them. This guy wasn’t restraining him for the benefit of the person being restrained. I think it’s a pretty glaring difference. The marine wasn’t administering narcan, or using motivational interviewing, or something assistive, he put him in a chokehold -- that’s not, by any stretch of the imagination, a good faith effort to help the person.
In this case, the spade is a concerned citizen (based on the facts as I understood them, including as recited here). If anything, I think this sort of scenario requires that we make allowances for the fact that people riding the subway aren’t as well-prepared to restrain someone in the event that it’s necessary. A big part of first aid training is that they reassure you that under various Good Samaritan laws, you can’t be prosecuted for attempting CPR or other first aid measures on someone, even if you harm them by accident (say, if someone was just zonked out on drugs and you end up breaking one of their ribs in an unneeded resuscitation attempt). As long as you’re making any sort of good faith effort to help, you aren’t prosecuted, so they tell you.
I would apply the same sort of logic to this situation.
I got it wrong that the choker had been charged w/ homicide; it's that the medical examiner ruled it as such. Sorry 'bout that!
(I blame the writers, for striking.)
*pauses midway through throwing a brick through a bank window* So... can I riot or not?
Spreading mis-, dis-, and mal-information, as usual. 🙄
That's what I thought. As an attorney, I thought it was too soon for any charges. Based on how complex the facts are it likely will be weeks until all of those involved are charged or indicted. People might want him to be charged but New York’s discovery rules based what is currently known and any new evidence found are in any potential defendant's favor.
You guys did a great job mentioning how multiple people were involved in the incident. That most likely has complicated bringing any future charges. And a few minutes or snippets of the present video hardly is evidence that would be enough to prove any defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Google "don't choke 'em, smoke 'em Portland Police" for a fun, racially charged chokehold story, from 38 years ago. There's no new news, just variations of the old news.
Victor Lagina, and will never forget it.
There's a (horrible) video on reddit right now where the guy stops the choke-out too soon and gets rewarded by getting knocked out:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ActualPublicFreakouts/comments/13auaxr/guy_breaks_up_a_waffle_house_fight_with_a/
Yes, but you are spot on with your jury comment. Think about hoe long jury selection will take as they ask who had had an incident on the subway or with a homeless person. That is almost everyone I know in NYC.
I know approximately zero about the law but thought when you said it that homicide is the result not the charge.
In a weird conflation of things mentioned in this dispatch, here's Steve Albini weighing in on it https://twitter.com/electricalWSOP/status/1654008361229090818?
"Aggressing in your own pants" will be added to our long list of favourite Welchisms.
As much as the pod is a pick-me-up, the aftermath of the NYC subway incident — that is, *this* NYC subway incident — serves as yet another depressing reminder that there’s no end in sight for America’s race essentialism.
When I heard that the word “lynching” is being used by some to describe the man’s death, I immediately thought of Biden’s remarks after a White House screening of the film ‘Till,’ in which he said, “Some people still want to do that.” This is the what cynical, stupid politicians and a fearmongering press want the easily-influenced hoi polloi to believe. They want to foment unrest. They seem to relish it.
It’s all exhausting. Is anyone else exhausted?
NY State Senator Julia Salazar on twitter, “this was a lynching” https://twitter.com/JuliaCarmel__/status/1653733102760411137
Who are these people? How do they get elected?
She’s particularly awful
Oh god I just looked her up. She’s a wanna be AOC with her socialist agenda and red lips 💋 !!!! 😱 I didn’t think it could get any worse. I need to leave this state.
What a gross human being.
She even did a stolen Jewish valor https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2018-08-28/ty-article/ny-state-senate-hopeful-julia-salazar-lied-about-being-jewish/0000017f-f56d-d460-afff-ff6fb4e60000
What a fucking poser and how embarrassing for her inevitable impending pro-Palestine pivot. In Mexico City, we have a very accomplished (non-faux) Jewish woman as our mayor. She has a PhD in physics and energy engineering and a share of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. She's one of the favorites to be the next president of Mexico. Her name's Claudia Sheinbaum, and she's probably my favorite politician ever.
Yes, but why do so many people fall for it?! That’s what upsets me - yes we have stupid politicians and a fearmongering press but also a bunch of “educated” stupid f’ing idiots!!!
Fear of being forced into one side in our dichotomous culture. There is usually considered to be only two sides, us and them. If you're not with us, well then you have to be with them. It's what prevents many liberals from realizing that much of the "woke" critique of society is actually a radical critique and thus just as much an attack on old-school liberalism as it is on conservatism.
But they seem to be ok with taking one side. Are you saying they fear falling into the “other side”? I just don’t think they’re thinking critically on an issue-by-issue basis. More of a top down versus bottom up approach. If you have a core set of values, if you stick to those, you should be able to navigate issues and end up where you land - whether that’s considered “right” or “left”. Like with this subway incident, the video we’ve all seen shows at least two big guys subduing Neely, and we know he was shouting threatening things and throwing stuff. Looks like they thought they were doing the right thing by stopping the guy from hurting anyone or himself. It’s as plain as day if you have any common sense. But then the people with pulpits, like the media and AOC and Al Sharpton jump to the wildest and worst conclusions, calling it a racist act, a lynching, murder and call for these guys, who were clearly acting in self-defense or defense of others, to go to jail. And a whole slew of people, from all over, who’ve never even stepped foot in a NYC subway car, so they have zero context, join the crazy chorus. What happened to facts matter? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? What happened to self-defense? The power players give their followers false reason to believe that racism against black people is rampant, that the justice system is broken, that criminals are the real victims. Lies!!! And people mindlessly accept these nihilistic fantasies that are being spoon fed to them to keep them desperate for more or something. It’s just sickening and shameful. What are the core values steering their lives? From here it looks like gutter values or none at all. And I don’t know what we can do about it.
I'm saying that people are pushed into these all-or-nothing, one-sides positions because to be at all critical of one side invites the Twitter mob to brand you as an arch-representative of the other side. If you are on the Left you have to be part of the Kendi anti-racism brigade because to criticize Kendi will get you. Ramses a white supremacist. If you are on the right you have to join Chris Rufonin trying to ban discussion of ideologies because to criticize Rufonwill get you branded as a Marxist corrupter of children.
The subway incident is also a good example. The official narrative on the Left is the the country and white people are essentially white supremacist so any interaction between white and black people by definition is going to reflect that narrative. To deny any specific incident of it is to deny the narrative, which to them is the same thing as denying racism exists.
It works on the Right too. They will tell you that police are by definition keepers of law and order. Because of this they have a right to use deadly force whenever they feel their lives are threatened. But as keepers of law and order their lives are always being threatened so any use of deadly force by them in any situation is by definition justified.
As I type, protesters are in the subway. Literally on the tracks. Insanity!!! This is what I’m talking about. I’m frankly shocked (no 3rd rail pun intended) at how many people have drunk the far-left kool-aid. How has a tragic incident, with what appears to have involved no mal-intent - just an awful situation and accident - turned into this crazy town circus?! I’m legitimately frightened for our future.
One of the reasons I have pretty much stopped commenting on cultural and political topics elsewhere on the Internet is every time I would do it through my usual lens of saying that opposite sides are really mirror images of each other I would quickly realize that the people responding weren't listening to a GD thing I said and were simply consigning me to the most extreme of whatever group they hated. I have literally had the experience of saying that I think cancel culture is real, giving examples, and then saying that it is just another form of censorship identical to what the Christian Right did for decades, and had someone respond that they can just tell from my words that I want to kill all blacks, gays, and transsexuals. And that was a pro wrestling board!
I think if they legitimately thought he was an imminent threat to themselves or others in that subway car, that he died is a tragic ending but would not negate a defense of self-defense. How is one supposed to know how much pressure a psychotically energized person can tolerate - enough to incapacitate but not enough to cause harm? A victim should not be held to that standard when he/she is reacting in real time to a dangerous situation with adrenaline pumping. We can clearly see that at least one other man was needed to restrain Neely. I think it’s quite reasonable to assume the Marine here had practiced that chokehold before on fellow Marines/friends, men who were similarly healthy and strong. Neely was very likely in a physically weakened state, probably under-nourished and frail from drug abuse. Perhaps that is why he succumbed, along with his stated willingness to die. It’s possible his body just gave up. Also Marines are, in general, imbued with a sense of duty to serve and protect, and this Marine appeared to be operating under that ethos. Of course this is all speculation, and I agree we need to wait for all of the facts. I also believe some guesses are better than others and subscribe to the occum’s razor philosophy. I believe this Marine and the other men involved truly thought they were doing the right thing by subduing what they saw as a real threat and averting serious injury or worse to themselves or others.
Well said.
Exhausted, yes.
However, I disagree that there's no end in sight for America's race essentialism. The media and politicians are certainly into it. However, American's trust in those groups are plummeting. I expect that race essentialism will always exist to some degree, but I think the center of gravity is shifting back towards not being super racist.
Also, there have been a lot of ousting recently of prominent race essentialists and several large media companies are trying to pivot away from those grifters.
But yeah, I accidentally checked the Twitter coverage of the "lynching" and it was just full on deranged. Someone tweeted (I think a media org) a headline that made it seem like some white dude saw a black dude saying he was tired of being hungry and was like "n-slurs complaining about being hungry? Can't have that bullshit"
Thank you for the optimism, which, given that my own supply has run dry, I’ll take wherever I can get it.
I don't see how anyone could be hopeful about that issue. It feels like it will be a change of generations rather than minds will be the only way the culture moves on. Doesn't seem like something that will happen in our life times.
Yes. Agree. Generation change.
Sadly, I agree. My non-scientific estimation is that it will be 10-20 years before we cycle through this, if we ever do. But I think that too much damage has already been done.
Too many incomes depend on the Victim Industrial Complex.
I will be dead before it happens, but I have a suspicion that in a couple of generations young people will rebel against their elders by starting a fad where they will start constantly calling each other by all of our currently forbidden racial slurs, and anybody that tries to censor them for it will be considered an out of touch old fogey who is just part of a past, clueless generation.
Exhausted 😴
*raises hand*
I get the exhaustion, but I'm not sure the race essentialism is the worst thing. I mean, at least there is actual racism.
The more fragmented, artificial, and centrally controlled the media landscape becomes, the more its focus seems to trend towards pure fantasies.
Speaking of Albini, he had one of the dumber tweets re: the NY subway incident: “I don't know about you, but if I could spend $100 to keep somebody from being strangled to death, I'd happily hand over $100. So if you see someone in distress in public, before you strangle them to death, consider just giving them $100.”
Would go broke real quick.
How many people have you strangled to death?!?
The question is how many people have I seen in a similar state of public distress that the homicide victim was reportedly expressing before the headlocker got hold of him. I would estimate that number easily in the three digits.
This can't be a real tweet. I refuse to believe someone actually tweeted this.
I couldn’t make that up.
And with the writers strike on, you wouldn't be allowed to make it up.
It seems to me Tucker clearly noticed something cruel and insane arising in his soul and called it out in order to refuse it and by doing so, transcend it.
I'd be happy to do that so long as Albini gave me the $100 first. With inflation the way it is not all of us are exactly carrying around a spare hundy in our wallets.
If you google “steve albini poker” you can see how he can throw cold hard cash at people.
Why can’t people acknowledge that they weren’t there, they weren’t the subject of this man’s threatening behavior, and to hold judgment? It was clearly a tragic incident all around. The guys who subdued him had to think quick. That society had continually failed this man was left in their hands at that moment. People and their judgments suck. That’s my judgment.
Free minds and free markets? 🤨 The willful dumbassery of this. Somebody died, many people were in a dangerous event, and Twitter activists use it to promote their fucking brand.
"You better just ******* pay me"
(might be to soon for this)
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a0824733-727f-42a8-b231-532a09194c13
Yeah, I still visit NYC pretty often, but I haven't been on the subway since March 2020, when I went to the Fifth Column meetup at the Bleecker Street Bar (i.e, the "Superspreader Event")
Can you flesh that out a bit more? Like, are you making a choice not to ride the subway out of fear for your safety, essentially? These are good-faith, non-rhetorical questions, just in case that needs to be said.
Because as a New Yorker who needs to get from place to place, I don’t even know how I’d do so without the subway a lot of the time—and I have a car! So I’m curious, in a totally nonjudgmental way, about a) why you’re avoiding the subway, and b) how you’re getting around when you’re here. I care a lot about the subway and its future, because the city I love would seize up and cease functioning without it, so I take every opportunity to hear people’s thoughts about it. (I have my own thoughts, but y’know, I already know what those are!)
I don’t feel comfortable taking the subway at night anymore (I mostly attend evening and nighttime events). I rent a car and stay at a hotel in New Jersey or with my family in Scranton, PA.
Okay NYC, I love you, and Imma let you finish, but....
April 8th '23 - https://www.fox29.com/news/police-man-shot-to-death-on-center-city-septa-platform-shooter-in-custody
March 29th '23 - https://patch.com/pennsylvania/philadelphia/attempted-murder-more-charges-filed-south-philly-septa-shooting
Feb 27th '23 - https://6abc.com/philadelphia-stabbing-septa-market-frankford-line-philly/12885728/
Feb 1st '23 - https://dailyvoice.com/pennsylvania/bucks/police-fire/septa-rider-stabbed-to-death-at-center-city-station-police/855765/
Nov 7th, '22 - https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/at-least-1-person-shot-at-septa-station-in-spring-garden/3415901/
Sept 10th '22 - https://www.fox29.com/news/man-64-shot-multiple-times-and-killed-at-center-city-septa-platform
August 3rd, '22 - https://www.phillyvoice.com/double-shooting-septa-arrott-transportation-center-frankford/
July 13th, '22 - https://www.foxnews.com/us/fourteen-year-old-turns-himself-philadelphia-septa-shooting
Not included: a spree of half a dozen rapes / attempted rapes in SEPTA stations last summer.
Aww heck, just for you guys. Several of these are rapes at gunpoint and rape / assault of young teens. Not included are they myriad stories, some of which are reported, others are not, of people just jacking off, groping someone, or assaulting someone. SEPTA's hell. It's always been pretty rough, but has gotten a LOT rougher since covid. I've personally intervened in several platform fights and been sexually assaulted by a group of young teens.
I love the lads, and I really do believe that the MTA has deteriorated in quality and safety recently. However, every time I go to NYC, I'm awed by how clean, safe, and orderly the MTA is compared to SEPTA. I see cops on almost literally every platform in NYC. I literally haven't seen a cop on SEPTA in over a year.
Oct 21 '22 - https://6abc.com/philadelphia-sexual-assault-philly-sex-teens-sexually-assaulted-septa/12361739/
Oct 20 '22 - https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/sex-assault-septa-broad-street-line-ridge-spur-station/3398833/
Sept 22 '22- https://www.fox29.com/news/suspect-sought-in-connection-with-sexual-assaults-on-septa-broad-st-line
July 18th '22 - https://6abc.com/philadelphia-septa-rape-suspect-charged-snyder-station-sex-assault/12065346/
April '22 - https://www.fox29.com/news/das-office-drops-charges-against-man-accused-of-septa-rape-adds-new-charges-in-other-incidents
Oct 31, '21 - https://www.audacy.com/kywnewsradio/news/local/fiston-ngoy-pleads-guilty-rape-unconscious-woman-septa
2021 - https://www.inquirer.com/news/fiston-ngoy-sentenced-prison-raping-woman-septa-20230413.html
Interestingly (and reassuringly for many of us Philadelphians), almost all of this is concentrated on two lines (Market-Frankford and Broad Street Line) and to a lesser extent in the underground trolley stops. Light rail and busses have been fine to the extent I know them, even in some of the worse parts of town (well, West Philly; I have no reason to step foot in the Wastelands). Maybe a certain kind of predator feels more empowered in underground or elevated stations, as opposed to street-level ones. Maybe the predictable climate that invites the homeless. Or perhaps it's a territorial issue with police (I recall hearing that campus police is not allowed to patrol underground SEPTA stations in campus, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's a, pardon, cop-out).
In either case, the result is a "split-screen effect" where a lot of us see well-functioning infrastructure while the rest sees a violent hellscape. I am not going to lie and claim that this is what pushed me out into the suburbs, but now that I live there, the comparison alone is reason enough for me to never look back.
Context for non-Philadelphians: Philly only has two proper subway lines: the MFL and the Broad-Street Line. So yeah, basically our subway is fucked. Also important context: SEPTA services a large segment of south-eastern Pennsylvania (hence "SEPTA), so funding and control is largely in the state's hands, despite something like 80% of the ridership living / commuting to Philadelphia.
I think you might be on to something about jurisdiction. I think SETPA cops are even worse funded / experiencing greater shortages than Philly cops. Either way, you're right about the buses and trolleys (and I presume NHL). I transitioned to taking almost exclusively busses over the past few years as they are reliably safer and cleaner. Busses are a perfectly fine experience, actually. Regional rail is a treat.
The exception to this is taking the Night Owl busses. Last time I took the MFL Night Owl, the dude directly behind me started smoking crack. When he was politely asked to not smoke crack on the crowded bus, he went off to the effect of "you're just bigoted. You wouldn't have a problem if I was smoking cigarettes or weed, but because I'm smoking *crack* you have a mother fucking problem".
If the entire national news media were headquartered in Center City Philadelphia, I promise you’d hear a hell of a lot more about that than you do, and yeah, it’s a LOT worse. Hell, St. Louis, where I recently spent two years, is WAY worse; the murder rate one year I was there was the *highest in North America*. New York needs to reverse this trend, no doubt about it, but it continues to be a very safe big city (THE safest, unless something’s changed), outside of some of the rough neighborhoods that have been like that for as long as (and much longer than) I’ve been alive.
Philly beats out NYC not only on a per-capita basis, but also on an absolute numbers basis, for a city around 1/6th the size of NYC.
In 2022, NYC had 433 murders while Philly had 516.
Nearly all of the murder articles I posted are from the Center City area, our most affluent and populated neighborhood.
This epi has been shocking and surprising to me. There's a JC PENNEY THAT'S STILL OPEN?!
To quote one of my favorite Chicago news sources heyjackass.com "All murders are homicides, but not all homicides are murders."
That's some very nice design there! Also impressed by the granularity of data. Whoever runs that is doing a fine job.
Agreed, they and https://cwbchicago.com/ were my go tos back when I was still in chicago. If you wanna know what the crimes be doin, those two gotcha covered. :D
Rofl, okay. Chicago might have Philly beat.
You guys have robbers who make off with 1.1m cash. https://cwbchicago.com/2023/05/armored-car-robbers-got-away-with-1-1-million-cash-and-an-apple-airtag-fbi-says.html
Philly has robbers who make off with 200k in *dimes*
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/14/us/philadelphia-dime-heist-trnd/index.html
Ours are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
heheh yeah I saw your other comment and felt compelled to be the "chicago checking in guy" but the depth and breadth of chicago level stupid is just too much to really get after. I do wonder what the other team crime cities (LA, Atl, DC, etc) would report as their greatest hits. I would include my neighboring Detroit but well to have truly shocking crime you need a foundation of victims and Detroit is going through a slump in that population. :D
I'd 100% put Moynihan in a chokehold if I saw him on the subway.
Like anything picked up by the media these days, it’s hard to tell what average New Yorkers actually think. The NYT comment section on this story was a source of sanity for once. Seems like average NYers are fed up. In the absence of public order this will continue to happen as people start to step up to fill the void. It’s horrifying that this man was killed, but it’s also horrifying that he was allowed to wander the streets and threaten anyone and everyone around them with no apparent consequence. Expecting regular people to just endure it, while never knowing if they are any real danger or not, is an insane expectation.
The “race angle” makes it all the more ridiculous because if the races were reversed, the internet would be in full “fuck around and find out, lol” mode. It’s all such a sad and stupid state of affairs.
Exactly. Allowing people who are seriously unwell with a recent criminal history to roam free is as much a danger to them as it is to others.
Reason recently published a good debate on this issue.
https://reason.com/2023/04/11/proposition-mentally-ill-homeless-people-must-be-locked-up-for-public-safety/
Bring back the state mental hospitals! They closed them way back in the sixties and we have to admit the experiment failed. Society cannot absorb mentally ill people. Admit this and open the state hospitals again.
When the NKVD went into Poland to take their share of the country after the German invasion, they opened the prisons, told the inmates to go and rob and kill the rich, and then filled the jails with the bourgeois who weren’t so psyched about having their shit taken.
What’s happening in several major cities in the US today has the same odor.
Or like Bane in Gotham:
https://youtu.be/PM6SWn5Ed54
Trevor Noah dropping 81% in viewership? James Corden reportedly lost $20million a year for CBS.
The bitter irony that comes in knowing all these organisations have "sustainability" listed as a principle value.
To be fair to Trevor Noah (now there's a phrase I don't utter very often) ratings for pretty much everything on network TV and basic cable have been cratering for years. Except for NFL football, I guess.
Side note: remember when the CTE/concussion issue really came to the fore a few years back, and people wondered if it was the beginning of the end for the NFL? Fast forward to 2023 and not only does the NFL still dominate TV ratings, but there are *two* spring leagues, each with major network backing, battling it out. (Go Battlehawks!)
The late night shows must make money on the YouTube videos or something to justify what these people make.
Sustaining profits must not fall under that umbrella.
It *would* be sustaining if people just had the right values. Therefore, the problem isn't the hosts, it's the bigoted viewers.
Richard Pryor was in "Wild In The Streets," the AIP movie about a rock star becoming President and sending all the over-thirties to re-education camps, in 1968. I can't say it's a *good* movie, but it really shows a counter-counter-cultural side of the sixties that's been kind of overlooked.
Kmele mentioned that Tucker was on a Daily Wire podcast but it was actually the Full Send podcast. It was an interesting interview for sure.
Best part of my week!
Same here.
I found this episode incredibly peculiar. Michael says at one point that people who are upset about the subway incident would insist that there should be a mental health professional (which is stated in a minimizing way as though that isn’t a solution) and then flatly states that because their solution isn’t disciplinary/ police than this isn’t a solution...
I work every day as a mental health professional with people that talk to themselves, have criminal records and/or open criminal cases, don’t complete their ADLs, some are homeless, using substances, chronically suicidal, etc. and may very well cause havoc on the MBTA and the reason the work I do is not as effective as it could be is because we are underfunded, and undervalued by people just like here that think police are the best solution.
I work with several people that have been trapped in a cycle of incarceration and then treatment and then incarceration. The reason incarceration (especially for someone with psychosis) is not a solution is because it sets a person back in their treatment sometimes so dramatically as to erase all the work that has already been done. It’s an extremely short sighted approach.
Furthermore, I think y’all need to read the peer reviewed studies on mental health before you spout on about stuff. I don’t see a discrepancy between how people knew this deceased man and how he was in the moments before his death. A person can have suicidal ideation and seem to others happy and jovial. Most people who experience auditory, visual or sensory hallucinations are not a threat to others.
I find it so bizarre and puzzling that you all sound right on the money when you discuss most public policy, and then sound like you’re reading from the DSM II when the mental health field has moved along quite substantially. I say all of this as a Szaszian and Foucauldian oriented person.
I mean, I've rotated in psych ED, and if a patient was behaving the way this person was, I would certainly have armed guards come and restrain him. And if I was working in an outpatient setting, I'd IVC him. There is no way I would try to talk with someone who was behaving in that manner.
When I heard about this story, the first thing that came to mind for me was an incident a few years ago in Australian where a mentally ill man firebombed a bus (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-10/manmeet-alisher-bus-driver-killer-unfit-for-trial/10092612). People who are this acutely ill are extremely dangerous, and should be treated as such. Involuntary commitment is better than prison, but it does involve physical force and coercive measures.
Sure. But, in the community on the subway vs. a psych ED, inherently there would be a different response. In the psych ED they’d restrain the person in a manner that would be least restrictive and non-lethal, and then administer haldol. If a non-public health official, social worker, cop, EMR, etc. puts someone into a restraint and inadvertently kills them attempting to replicate what they think best practices looks like, I think we can call a spade a spade. This isn’t what happens in psych EDs today, and when it does FIRE, ACLU, IJ, et all rightfully come to the defense of the person harmed.
Again though, lol, there’s a pretty sizable difference between providing CPR or helping someone choke, and restraining them. This guy wasn’t restraining him for the benefit of the person being restrained. I think it’s a pretty glaring difference. The marine wasn’t administering narcan, or using motivational interviewing, or something assistive, he put him in a chokehold -- that’s not, by any stretch of the imagination, a good faith effort to help the person.
In this case, the spade is a concerned citizen (based on the facts as I understood them, including as recited here). If anything, I think this sort of scenario requires that we make allowances for the fact that people riding the subway aren’t as well-prepared to restrain someone in the event that it’s necessary. A big part of first aid training is that they reassure you that under various Good Samaritan laws, you can’t be prosecuted for attempting CPR or other first aid measures on someone, even if you harm them by accident (say, if someone was just zonked out on drugs and you end up breaking one of their ribs in an unneeded resuscitation attempt). As long as you’re making any sort of good faith effort to help, you aren’t prosecuted, so they tell you.
I would apply the same sort of logic to this situation.