Hi Sara, I'm wondering if you have a link to an archived version of the letter? It was taken down from the Guardian, and I can't find it anywhere (thank goodness for them saving us from radicalization). I did see a pdf that I think Moynihan references, but given it talks about Obama, it doesn't seem to be the original 2002 letter.
Update: Fuck. I read the letter and now find myself irresistibly pulled to jihad. Quick, someone send me Gandhi's "Quit India" speech before I detonate my boom-boom vest!
It's possible that I interpreted "improvised explosive device" too liberally. I did the best I could with the tools I had, which was basically a bedsheet and Taco Bell.
Has anyone thought to do a wellness check on the poor journalists and opinion havers who were hyperventilating about "stochastic terrorism" not that long ago? They've been so quiet, I worry they're all bound and gagged in a Hamas tunnel under Midtown.
You know, I really like her too but after the first time she was on I checked out her feed and came away a little disappointed. Glad to have her here though
She's always had a keen sense of humor but what I remember most clearly was her insight and sincerity. I have never had any trouble amusing myself, the world is rife with entertainment; Agreeable conversation, however, is harder to find.
Matt, I’m pretty sure nobody on any side of the issue defines Zionism as support for West Bank settlements. Israelis in the WB and their supporters no doubt call themselves Zionists, but so do lots of other people. Anti-Zionists are generally opposed to Israel’s very existence, not just to settlements.
As far as I’m concerned, if you support Israel’s existence, you’re a Zionist. Others may define it a little differently, but in any case, it’s not about settlements.
From what I've seen in the last 5+ years or so, using "Zionism/ist" that way seems to be a fairly common thing in the US among moderate liberal millennials and probably their zoomer counterparts. Including some Jewish moderate liberal millennial Americans. It's a descriptive mistake, fed by and feeding into a weasely motte and bailey dynamic on the anti-Zionist side of things, but it's out there.
This is what I meant -- this is the way that some critics of Israel *here* seem to use/intend it. Zionism in this view is expansionism, settler colonialism.
For what its worth, in the two decades I have been an adult I have never had a conversation where Zionism was used to describe the expansion, rather than the existence, of an Israeli state. Even in older literature Zion was used, poetically, to describe homesickness for places which did not yet exist. I've also read some Marxist works where the term was used to describe expansion but often as an extension of existence where no clear distinction beyond ever shifting context separated the two concepts. I'm not an expert and Welsh is certainly more knowledgeable on this subject than I, and doubtless has had more opportunity to discuss it, but I have to admit it feels like a dodge.
Hey, actually, while I've got your attention, if you can be more specific and don't mind going into it, where have you seen anti-Zionism have the emphasis on Israel exceeding its original borders? I don't know a hell of a lot about Zionism but to my very superficial understanding it is nothing more than a desire for a Jewish homeland.
Any neighboring countries with war in their history are going to have contested territorial boundaries, even if they are amicably expressed such as between Canada and the US, so I don't have any issue with anyone's thoughts on Israel and her neighbors (where my apathy on the question is rivaled only by my ignorance), but I am curious how popular your use of the phrase is since, well, this was my first time hearing it floated although if I recall correctly you did qualify your use with something along the lines of 'to the extent you have any anti-Zionistic impulse it is in regard to the West Bank' and if that is correct we may be making more hay out of this than we should.
This morning I read Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" which is Friedrich Hayek's book explaining how collectivism leads not to utopia but to totalitarian horrors. And I am ashamed to say I have not only never read this book, I'm ashamed to say I never even knew this book existed. It's wild, and you should read it. If you haven't read it yet, read it. However, be forewarned that this has left me very disillusioned, and I feel the same exact way as when I was deconstructing Christianity. I feel a little bit, just, uh, confused, like I've entered into another timeline. Like, what is this?! Yeah, so... go read it!
Full disclosure: I did not read Hayek this morning, though I have read "Serfdom". This is just a parody of one of the bin Laden "Letter to America" fan-girls. Thanks for the recommendation though! Pretty sure I've already bought "The Fatal Conceit", but I'll double-check.
Am southern and have cousins who are ministers in various Christian (non-evangelical) denominations, and I can confirm MKH’s comments re how they see Israel. There is huge respect for the Judeo-Christian tradition and that Israel is the caretaker for the biblical and archaeological history that matters to both Christianity and Judaism. Where I live currently, I’d be stunned if I were to see anything indicating anti-semitism or support for Hamas.
Totally agree running around evangelical and Catholic circles all my life. I would amend that the "Jews are another type of Christian right?" Is non zero in the evangelical circles, including my family....
I also grew up in the south among church-going folk. I’d add that there was and still is, at least in my household, an almost religious reverence regarding the suffering endured during the holocaust. WW2 loomed large for my parents who were both born in ‘38. My mom read a lot of Corrie ten Boom and that sort of thing.
There's a lot of speculation that bin Laden didn't write "Letter to America." I vaguely remember having to read it in college, but reread it again after bin Laden-palooza erupted on TikTok, and it struck me how "Western" the writing style even seemed (the way it was organised, the bullet points, etc.). Early on, some people thought it could have been written by Adam Gadahn, the American spokesman of al Qaeda and one of bin Laden's advisors. He was homeschooled in California by Christian parents and even had a grandparent who had been on the board of the ADL, but converted to Islam, moved to Pakistan in the 90s, and linked up with al Qaeda pretty quickly after. So I think it's possible he wrote it. But the more likely possibility is that it was written by Ayman al Zawahiri, an Egyptian al Qaeda higher-up who succeeded bin Laden as the leader of al Qaeda after bin Laden was killed. Al Qaeda's media arm attributed it to al Zawahiri and it shows up in compilations of his writings (and doesn't in bin Laden's). Terrorist plagiarism isn't going to be a hill I die on, but maybe we should get these TikTokers to issue a correction, and also make sure they're feeling OK after they find out they've been lied to AGAIN.
I don't think the Guardian should have taken the letter down, especially since it's apparently fueling a conspiracy that "they" don't want Gen Z to be able to read it and achieve enlightenment. "They" want to keep you down, man! (I think the Guardian was freaked out that it looked like their readership comprised a ton of terrorist sympathisers after it shot to the top of most-read articles twenty years after it was written, and I mean....). It's still easy to find it, obviously (don't worry, Newsweek took the mature and important step of publishing the text in full a couple days ago, bless them), but I don't think the precedent of taking down "controversial" pieces is super great.
Also, I agree that it's pretty obvious most of the kids didn't read the letter (they skipped over the two Quaranic surahs at the beginning that said Muslims have the right to fight nonbelievers because they are friends of Satan, which is you, darlings) and just got straight to the part that said Israel is BAD and they were like, yeah, true! Dude was on to something!
Let me guess. When asked about the effectiveness of the Bay Bridge shutdown, the protestors said something along the lines of, "this is the only way to wake people up to show them the seriousness of the situation"? I have been hearing people say things like that after stunts like that for over 40 years. The irony is of course not only how cut off they are from the world around them, but how cut off they are from the very people they are hoping to effect.
I just realized: the same people who claim Christians support Israel because of biblical prophecy will immediately dismiss religious motives of Jihadi attacks, blaming poverty and disenfranchisement instead.
I guess example #42,769 in politics continues to make strange bedfellows. Young Leftists are now basically embracing the thesis behind Dinesh D'Souza's The Enemy At Home, that Islam hates us for our secular licentiousness, and they are right to do so, and those of us in the correct position need to see we have more in common with Islam and embrace them.
With all due respect to MKH though I think it is often underreported how much Evangelical culture led directly to MAGA culture so as with most things everyone has their part to play in the chaos.
If you read the bin Laden letter and come away thinking “he had a point,” you are well-indoctrinated, not well-educated.
Hi Sara, I'm wondering if you have a link to an archived version of the letter? It was taken down from the Guardian, and I can't find it anywhere (thank goodness for them saving us from radicalization). I did see a pdf that I think Moynihan references, but given it talks about Obama, it doesn't seem to be the original 2002 letter.
I think this might be it?
https://web.archive.org/web/20231116112651/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gwwRw1--gfMJ:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver&hl=en&gl=us
Update: Fuck. I read the letter and now find myself irresistibly pulled to jihad. Quick, someone send me Gandhi's "Quit India" speech before I detonate my boom-boom vest!
Don’t worry people, his boom-boom vest is a diaper.
It's possible that I interpreted "improvised explosive device" too liberally. I did the best I could with the tools I had, which was basically a bedsheet and Taco Bell.
Thanks!
Muslims are the "real" Jews. I am no longer confused.
My wife (a good mom): *Puts on nursery rhymes in the car when she drives our 1.5 yea old kid around*
Me (a bad dad): *Puts on the fifth column on when I drive my 1.5 year old kid around*
Some people are saying, a lot of people are saying, this might be the best father.
Has anyone thought to do a wellness check on the poor journalists and opinion havers who were hyperventilating about "stochastic terrorism" not that long ago? They've been so quiet, I worry they're all bound and gagged in a Hamas tunnel under Midtown.
Broke: Stochastic terrorism
Woke: Actual terrorism
Hell yes. She is one of my favorite guests.
You know, I really like her too but after the first time she was on I checked out her feed and came away a little disappointed. Glad to have her here though
My rule: if someone is hilarious, I love them, even if they are wrong, or crazy, or even a little mean.
She's always had a keen sense of humor but what I remember most clearly was her insight and sincerity. I have never had any trouble amusing myself, the world is rife with entertainment; Agreeable conversation, however, is harder to find.
MK is my girl crush. Woman is smart, funny, has 4 kids, a husband and like 6 part-time jobs. She is fantastic.
MM is just a tad anxious that more girls be crushing on MK than MM ✌️
Matt, I’m pretty sure nobody on any side of the issue defines Zionism as support for West Bank settlements. Israelis in the WB and their supporters no doubt call themselves Zionists, but so do lots of other people. Anti-Zionists are generally opposed to Israel’s very existence, not just to settlements.
As far as I’m concerned, if you support Israel’s existence, you’re a Zionist. Others may define it a little differently, but in any case, it’s not about settlements.
From what I've seen in the last 5+ years or so, using "Zionism/ist" that way seems to be a fairly common thing in the US among moderate liberal millennials and probably their zoomer counterparts. Including some Jewish moderate liberal millennial Americans. It's a descriptive mistake, fed by and feeding into a weasely motte and bailey dynamic on the anti-Zionist side of things, but it's out there.
This is what I meant -- this is the way that some critics of Israel *here* seem to use/intend it. Zionism in this view is expansionism, settler colonialism.
I’ve never heard this, but I’ll take your word for it. Pardon my Benjy-splaining.
For what its worth, in the two decades I have been an adult I have never had a conversation where Zionism was used to describe the expansion, rather than the existence, of an Israeli state. Even in older literature Zion was used, poetically, to describe homesickness for places which did not yet exist. I've also read some Marxist works where the term was used to describe expansion but often as an extension of existence where no clear distinction beyond ever shifting context separated the two concepts. I'm not an expert and Welsh is certainly more knowledgeable on this subject than I, and doubtless has had more opportunity to discuss it, but I have to admit it feels like a dodge.
I don't know anything, except how to spell my last name!
Hey, actually, while I've got your attention, if you can be more specific and don't mind going into it, where have you seen anti-Zionism have the emphasis on Israel exceeding its original borders? I don't know a hell of a lot about Zionism but to my very superficial understanding it is nothing more than a desire for a Jewish homeland.
Any neighboring countries with war in their history are going to have contested territorial boundaries, even if they are amicably expressed such as between Canada and the US, so I don't have any issue with anyone's thoughts on Israel and her neighbors (where my apathy on the question is rivaled only by my ignorance), but I am curious how popular your use of the phrase is since, well, this was my first time hearing it floated although if I recall correctly you did qualify your use with something along the lines of 'to the extent you have any anti-Zionistic impulse it is in regard to the West Bank' and if that is correct we may be making more hay out of this than we should.
Thanks. Sorry I'm such an asshole about things.
Christ, I'm sorry man. I don't even have an excuse for that one.
Have you put “Zionism” into Wikipedia?
No.
This morning I read Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" which is Friedrich Hayek's book explaining how collectivism leads not to utopia but to totalitarian horrors. And I am ashamed to say I have not only never read this book, I'm ashamed to say I never even knew this book existed. It's wild, and you should read it. If you haven't read it yet, read it. However, be forewarned that this has left me very disillusioned, and I feel the same exact way as when I was deconstructing Christianity. I feel a little bit, just, uh, confused, like I've entered into another timeline. Like, what is this?! Yeah, so... go read it!
https://ctheory.sitehost.iu.edu/img/Hayek_The_Road_to_Serfdom.pdf
Read "The Fatal Conceit" next - Hayek is great!
Full disclosure: I did not read Hayek this morning, though I have read "Serfdom". This is just a parody of one of the bin Laden "Letter to America" fan-girls. Thanks for the recommendation though! Pretty sure I've already bought "The Fatal Conceit", but I'll double-check.
😂 well now I'm embarrassed. Hayek really is great, outside all the "holy war" stuff.
Jesus Randolph! The Untrue Scotsman is a deceiver, a boombazeler, and a known quantity in the disinformation machine.
Keep one eye peeled whilst he is skulking about.
Nice to meet you, you must be new.
Am southern and have cousins who are ministers in various Christian (non-evangelical) denominations, and I can confirm MKH’s comments re how they see Israel. There is huge respect for the Judeo-Christian tradition and that Israel is the caretaker for the biblical and archaeological history that matters to both Christianity and Judaism. Where I live currently, I’d be stunned if I were to see anything indicating anti-semitism or support for Hamas.
Totally agree running around evangelical and Catholic circles all my life. I would amend that the "Jews are another type of Christian right?" Is non zero in the evangelical circles, including my family....
I also grew up in the south among church-going folk. I’d add that there was and still is, at least in my household, an almost religious reverence regarding the suffering endured during the holocaust. WW2 loomed large for my parents who were both born in ‘38. My mom read a lot of Corrie ten Boom and that sort of thing.
This is a dynamic that I hadn’t thought about at all, since I wasn’t raised in this sort of religious environment or practice in the same.
Awesome observation here. Found it really insightful.
There's a lot of speculation that bin Laden didn't write "Letter to America." I vaguely remember having to read it in college, but reread it again after bin Laden-palooza erupted on TikTok, and it struck me how "Western" the writing style even seemed (the way it was organised, the bullet points, etc.). Early on, some people thought it could have been written by Adam Gadahn, the American spokesman of al Qaeda and one of bin Laden's advisors. He was homeschooled in California by Christian parents and even had a grandparent who had been on the board of the ADL, but converted to Islam, moved to Pakistan in the 90s, and linked up with al Qaeda pretty quickly after. So I think it's possible he wrote it. But the more likely possibility is that it was written by Ayman al Zawahiri, an Egyptian al Qaeda higher-up who succeeded bin Laden as the leader of al Qaeda after bin Laden was killed. Al Qaeda's media arm attributed it to al Zawahiri and it shows up in compilations of his writings (and doesn't in bin Laden's). Terrorist plagiarism isn't going to be a hill I die on, but maybe we should get these TikTokers to issue a correction, and also make sure they're feeling OK after they find out they've been lied to AGAIN.
I don't think the Guardian should have taken the letter down, especially since it's apparently fueling a conspiracy that "they" don't want Gen Z to be able to read it and achieve enlightenment. "They" want to keep you down, man! (I think the Guardian was freaked out that it looked like their readership comprised a ton of terrorist sympathisers after it shot to the top of most-read articles twenty years after it was written, and I mean....). It's still easy to find it, obviously (don't worry, Newsweek took the mature and important step of publishing the text in full a couple days ago, bless them), but I don't think the precedent of taking down "controversial" pieces is super great.
Also, I agree that it's pretty obvious most of the kids didn't read the letter (they skipped over the two Quaranic surahs at the beginning that said Muslims have the right to fight nonbelievers because they are friends of Satan, which is you, darlings) and just got straight to the part that said Israel is BAD and they were like, yeah, true! Dude was on to something!
Let me guess. When asked about the effectiveness of the Bay Bridge shutdown, the protestors said something along the lines of, "this is the only way to wake people up to show them the seriousness of the situation"? I have been hearing people say things like that after stunts like that for over 40 years. The irony is of course not only how cut off they are from the world around them, but how cut off they are from the very people they are hoping to effect.
I just realized: the same people who claim Christians support Israel because of biblical prophecy will immediately dismiss religious motives of Jihadi attacks, blaming poverty and disenfranchisement instead.
It's very confusing to us that have a consistent position on religion.
You guys don’t understand. That’s just how people from South Buffalo sound.
You guys wanna be Ask a Jew so bad 😏
Going ham for Mary Katherine? Ever think 'Jews would be a lot cooler with Ham?' Well, has "Ask a Jew" got an interview for you!
https://askajew.substack.com/p/youve-got-a-friend-with-mary-katherine
Good pod today but I do wish Moynihan would have let Ham expand more on the evangelical view on Israel instead of stepping on her points.
I agrée. But, that Moynihan, he’s a real rascal.
I guess example #42,769 in politics continues to make strange bedfellows. Young Leftists are now basically embracing the thesis behind Dinesh D'Souza's The Enemy At Home, that Islam hates us for our secular licentiousness, and they are right to do so, and those of us in the correct position need to see we have more in common with Islam and embrace them.
With all due respect to MKH though I think it is often underreported how much Evangelical culture led directly to MAGA culture so as with most things everyone has their part to play in the chaos.
“Osama bin Hidin’”
Not well enough, as it turns out.
Ooof, eaten-by-dogs-with-metal-teeth slam!
I like to imagine that the seals yelled, “oh yeah!” Like the Kool-Aid man when they busted through his wall.