By comparison, here is a much, much more horrific bombing by US forces in the first Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing. Unlike the Israeli attack on Jabalia, that attack did not kill any combatants. The US mistakenly believed that the public air raid shelter had been converted to a command center. And that attack used precision-guided weapons, which were only as smart as the people making targeting decisions.
And I think that’s the double standard we are seeing here. Everyone else drops bombs and collateral damage is mostly acceptable, but when Israel does it it suddenly becomes “genocide” and calls for a cease fire dominate the discussion, in the middle of a military operation.
I can’t read the WSJ article (paywall) but if Israel doesn’t have people involved offering potential scenarios/consequences at play regarding their air strikes or they do and they are ignored (perhaps at a lust for revenge) then that is a problem. To suggest that a self proclaimed democracy should be held to a higher standard of warfare seems pretty rationale to me.
I agree, I can’t stand the selective outrage/selective history crowd on social media who didn’t blink an eye at the Bucha massacre or the bombing of the theatre in Mariupol or assads and russias indiscriminate bombing in Syria or other massacres around the world. It’s asking quite a lot out of regular people to be up on everyday happenings regarding every conflict and be thoroughly informed about both sides, understanding why one group hates another and causes of a conflict which usually involves a deep knowledge of history in a region which is just unrealistic sometimes. To suggest bad things have happened in war before and one so can’t be outraged at the current situation is lacking empathy for the affected population in my mind.
I didn’t use the term genocide and just because it’s not the worst of the worst bombing campaign in modern times as many tiktokers suggest, doesn’t mean it is justified and should be continued especially with no end plan offered besides to “destroy Hamas” which is unrealistic. Israel is doing more harm in the long run.
I don't think, and I don't think Israel is claiming, that the Jabalia bombing is justified ex post. Hundreds of civilian deaths in exchange for one commander is not a trade they want to make. Ex ante, they had reason to believe the ratio would be much smaller, so they took the risk. Their expectation was that the bombs would burrow through the street and explode in the tunnels, killing the fighters and sparing most civilians. But the tunnel network was more extensive than they thought, so the tunnel explosion caused the surrounding buildings to collapse.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do like the legal distinction between causing harm negligently, recklessly, knowingly, or purposefully is an important one. Russia purposefully attacked civilians in Syria. Israel's bombing in Jabalia was reckless at worst. If you want to argue that Israel should be a tad less reckless, then it's easy enough for me to agree. Nobody's launching rockets at me while hiding in tunnels under hospitals and apartment buildings.
Just popping in here to express my appreciation for this entire conversation. It’s nice to see reasonable people act in good faith and with curtesy in order to explore and better understand challenging issues. ❤️
The WSJ article on the Oct 31 bombing is a bit more balanced: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israeli-airstrike-hamas-commander-civilian-deaths-3b6be664
It seems like the IDF was hoping to kill the commander in his tunnel, and didn't expect the buildings to collapse.
By comparison, here is a much, much more horrific bombing by US forces in the first Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing. Unlike the Israeli attack on Jabalia, that attack did not kill any combatants. The US mistakenly believed that the public air raid shelter had been converted to a command center. And that attack used precision-guided weapons, which were only as smart as the people making targeting decisions.
And I think that’s the double standard we are seeing here. Everyone else drops bombs and collateral damage is mostly acceptable, but when Israel does it it suddenly becomes “genocide” and calls for a cease fire dominate the discussion, in the middle of a military operation.
I can’t read the WSJ article (paywall) but if Israel doesn’t have people involved offering potential scenarios/consequences at play regarding their air strikes or they do and they are ignored (perhaps at a lust for revenge) then that is a problem. To suggest that a self proclaimed democracy should be held to a higher standard of warfare seems pretty rationale to me.
I agree, I can’t stand the selective outrage/selective history crowd on social media who didn’t blink an eye at the Bucha massacre or the bombing of the theatre in Mariupol or assads and russias indiscriminate bombing in Syria or other massacres around the world. It’s asking quite a lot out of regular people to be up on everyday happenings regarding every conflict and be thoroughly informed about both sides, understanding why one group hates another and causes of a conflict which usually involves a deep knowledge of history in a region which is just unrealistic sometimes. To suggest bad things have happened in war before and one so can’t be outraged at the current situation is lacking empathy for the affected population in my mind.
I didn’t use the term genocide and just because it’s not the worst of the worst bombing campaign in modern times as many tiktokers suggest, doesn’t mean it is justified and should be continued especially with no end plan offered besides to “destroy Hamas” which is unrealistic. Israel is doing more harm in the long run.
I don't think, and I don't think Israel is claiming, that the Jabalia bombing is justified ex post. Hundreds of civilian deaths in exchange for one commander is not a trade they want to make. Ex ante, they had reason to believe the ratio would be much smaller, so they took the risk. Their expectation was that the bombs would burrow through the street and explode in the tunnels, killing the fighters and sparing most civilians. But the tunnel network was more extensive than they thought, so the tunnel explosion caused the surrounding buildings to collapse.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do like the legal distinction between causing harm negligently, recklessly, knowingly, or purposefully is an important one. Russia purposefully attacked civilians in Syria. Israel's bombing in Jabalia was reckless at worst. If you want to argue that Israel should be a tad less reckless, then it's easy enough for me to agree. Nobody's launching rockets at me while hiding in tunnels under hospitals and apartment buildings.
Just popping in here to express my appreciation for this entire conversation. It’s nice to see reasonable people act in good faith and with curtesy in order to explore and better understand challenging issues. ❤️