So many of you have written us demanding the return of Jacob Siegel that when word got to us that he was back in New York, we hunted him down and demanded that he submit to a *third* appearance on The Fifth. We discovered that Comrade Siegel, a gravelly voiced veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq and senior writer at Tablet, is hard at work on a book, an expansion of his already
"Kaplan & Abernathy": A cool 70s throwback crime solving duo, Jake Siegal and Nick Offerman star as badass detectives thrown together by chance. Siegal stars as Ira Kaplan, a playful but brilliant NYC cop with a shady past and penchant for breaking rules to get the perp. Offerman is Sean Abernathy, a thrice-divorced spectrum-y rule-follower who prefers to work alone. When Abernathy's partner, Paul Guthrie (Will Arnett in flashbacks) dies mysteriously, PC Charlie Wornlove (Wanda Sykes, obvi) brings in Kaplan as a replacement. Between Kaplan's willingness to go over the line and Abernathy's by-the-book sensibilities, the pair find a middle ground, solving high crimes while working to avenge Guthrie's death.
Ha! I was going for raspy/low voice overload. Since it's 70s-based, of course it would feature not only guest stars (fucking Bateman!) but - and I miss this about shows back then - crossovers.
My alter ego works in the entertainment industry. I do love putting together the bones of a story.
Very large problem with Jake's framing is that all federal bureaucrats are part of the "deep state" against Trump. In that framing, doing anything that is not what Trump wanted was being part of a shadowy cabal to undermine him. But a lot of what Trump wanted was ILLEGAL, and the bureaucrats saying, "No, we're not going to do that," were both DOING THEIR JOBS and trying to keep their own asses out of jail. The "I was just following orders" defense rings kinda hollow since 1945! It's not an accident a lot of Trump's former attorneys now have their own criminal attorneys. He kept on pushing people inside and outside of government to break the law. Time and again, between outright Muslim ban, or separating kids from families, or dozens of other things, Trump admin pressured people to do things that were illegal or would require repeal of standing regs-without getting the regs repealed. I know exactly what that feels like, it happened to me under the Bush admin, when Bush WH was lying about WMD in Iraq, and it was the job of ppl where I worked to tell the truth about it. Bush admin didn't care for anyone at CIA who said "Ahem, we don't actually know Saddam has WMD NOW-we know he USED to HAVE WMD." Bush Admin made sure CIA never said that in public assessments. Our WMD analysts were directly pressured by Dick Cheney IN PERSON to change their analysis. Don't make the mistake of thinking people in government agencies who refuse to bow to political pressure to break laws and regs are a vast conspiracy. They are most often people doing their job. If an Administration, ANY administration, wants to implement different policy, the way to do it is get Congress pass different laws, OR officially repeal and change regulations. It is not pressuring people in the agencies to ignore the laws and regs they swore an oath to uphold. When people doing their job in spite of pressure get demonized, people focus their angst on the wrong target. Don't demonize the "I refuse to break the law" ppl. Maybe attack the "you WILL break the law because I say so" ppl instead?
There’s a reason that gutting the civil service is a go to move for nascent authoritarians. This doesn’t mean that they don’t need to get taken down a peg or two on in a while but I certainly don’t mind there being different sources of power that are in tension with each other.
I’m sympathetic to Jake’s take on the intelligence community, especially Brennan(although I thought it was interesting he skipped from McCarthy to Obama, I recall there being a significant incident with a couple of talk office buildings in NYC in there that lead to a lot of unsavory intelligence stuff in the 2001-2004 range. I’ve come to accept that criticizing GOP soft targets just isn’t cool for guys like him and Taibbi, still like them just is what it is) but there are parts of the civil service that don’t deal with alleged Russian plots or COVID, in fact that’s most of the civil service. I am a civil servant, as was one of my parents and have some friends in different areas. Mostly we just go to work and try to do the stuff we are supposed to do like mitigate emergencies, enforce water standards, help Tunisia have elections, fight Mexican cartels etc. If there’s some overarching plot we didn’t get the memo or maybe were just off that day. That being said it’s always important to hold power accountable and appreciate Jake’s commitment even if he should maybe take a couple days and go for a walk in the woods or similar relaxing activity.
I'd agree. Every federal agency, including especially the intelligence community with which I'm intimately familiar, needs ongoing federal oversight-which is a problem because Congress has largely ceded their power to the executive already. Nobody made Congress do it, its just that oversight is hard, and hits on MSNBC or Fox news are easy and fun. So we get less of the former and more of the latter. Every federal agency should have an Inspector General with teeth (and I know both FBI and CIA IGs have called BS on some very serious issues-that's the process when it works). One thing that needs to happen is that the intelligence community needs to be subject to federal Whistleblower statutes. They are not right now. Yes, there needs to be a careful way to blow the whistle as they deal in secrets and life or death stuff, but secrecy shouldn't be used to cover up abuse or incompetence. Edward Snowden went public and said some very useful things-and many things he shouldn't have said-because the previous NSA whistleblower tried to do the right thing, tried to bring very legitimate concerns to Congress quietly, and the NSA went after him. Inside the intelligence community, it is all too easy to go after "troublemakers" and that needs to change. I'll criticize the intelligence community all day long for that kind of thing. But the idea that there is a coordinated "deep state" plotting to sabotage any particular president is a dark fantasy currently popular with those who've huffed too much MAGA-though ironically conspiracy theories about the deep state used to be the mainstay of the far lefties. Horseshoe theory in action.
Always interesting that in places, like this very podcast, there is philosophically a lot of emphasis placed on the value of the individual but sometimes that gets lost a little with some of the guests. Whether it’s Batya and “the working class” or Jake and “career civil servants”. Maybe it’s just hard to write a book unless you have a nice big ol monolithic group to write about?
A kernel of truth inside enormous logical leaps....
I felt Matt getting frustrated at certain points (i.e "Oct. 7th is Biden's fault??"). I share in that frustration!
I found it interesting how the end result of Jake's analysis is Trump's administration was great for America (but misses the obvious reasons why that is not true) while recent democratic presidents like Biden and Obama are deep state puppeteers.
A truly painful listen!
I'm unsure if the lack of push back by Michael is part of the philosophy of letting guests speak or he agreed with the majority of Jake's assertions...
Welp, I guess I may as well as join Spencer in throwing my name in the hat to replace Kmele since he has missed enough recordings to be declared legally dead in some jurisdictions (I assume anyway). I can commit to NOT working for a Silicon Valley power broker doing…something? I also generally hate “conferences” and am willing to fly first class.
I do not have a melanin force field, but it would be a disservice to Kmele’s memory to take that into consideration when selecting his replacement. Lastly, and I hope this isn’t disqualifying, but I think the Vision Pro is dumb and would be embarrassed to be seen wearing it.
Maybe Spencer and I could split cohosting duties? I look forward to your response. Thank you for your consideration.
What an amazing episode. There’s more valuable insight and information packed into this episode than there has been in the all of the “establishment” news media combined in the last eight years. Bravo JS. Fifth Column Forever
Yeah, Trump was great for middle east peace and stability if you don't count hundreds of thousands of Yemenis killed by our client states on his watch, the blockade of Qatar, or how the Abraham Accords led directly to October 7th. Otherwise a strategic genius.
The Yemen civil war started in 2014 and the Arab League coalition got involved in 2015. Most deaths were Yemeni on Yemeni so not sure how much of that is Trumps fault.
He oversaw the worst four years of it and vetoed multiple congressional attempts to end support for it. Most of the deaths were due to famine and the destruction of infrastructure caused by the Saudis and by extension, Washington. But yes, greenlighting the Saudi/UAE intervention in 2015 should be considered a permanent stain on Obama's record. He wanted to placate the Saudis after the JCPOA when he should have told them to get fucked.
Because they represented an abandonment of the longstanding, if insincere, condition that a settlement to the Israel/Palestine conflict was required for Israeli normalization with the major Arab governments. It removed the Palestinians' greatest source of leverage and incentivized them to resort to more extreme tactics.
I’m not buying it. Sidelining the Palestinians was a brilliant move, and we should move back to that posture ASAP.
The Palestinians get extremely violent when peace offers are made to them directly (2nd intifada), and when they’re sidelined (10/7). In other words, their extreme violence is always turned up to 11, regardless of what’s happening in the broader ME.
So, Israel may as well get busy livin’ and make deals with the Arabs who don’t want to see them all dead.
One in which the Palestinian state had actual sovereignty. I.e. controlled its own borders, airspace, trade, defense, etc.
The failure of Camp David, for which both sides share the blame, was indeed a factor. The continued expansion of illegal settlements, Israel's insistence on controlling Jerusalem and Sharon's deliberate provocation at the Temple Mount were others.
I don't know, maybe. But i'm more inclined to believe that 10/07 was due to the world's eye not being firmly focused on that specific region of the Middle East. On October 6,, people were still focused on Ukraine,
Though, hell, the UN has now recognized Palestinian statehood, and not sure that would have happened without October 7th and its aftermath
My read was that the net _effect_ of the T man's admin policies were helpful towards US middle east policy, and that was / is related to the sort of reptilian "alpha" approach which the T man happens to bring, rather than some kind of genius. More like credit where credit is due, looking at the world as it is, regardless of how we got here (or there as it were, being 2016-2020).
Why is Jake not cast in every crime drama TV series that ever airs?
"Kaplan & Abernathy": A cool 70s throwback crime solving duo, Jake Siegal and Nick Offerman star as badass detectives thrown together by chance. Siegal stars as Ira Kaplan, a playful but brilliant NYC cop with a shady past and penchant for breaking rules to get the perp. Offerman is Sean Abernathy, a thrice-divorced spectrum-y rule-follower who prefers to work alone. When Abernathy's partner, Paul Guthrie (Will Arnett in flashbacks) dies mysteriously, PC Charlie Wornlove (Wanda Sykes, obvi) brings in Kaplan as a replacement. Between Kaplan's willingness to go over the line and Abernathy's by-the-book sensibilities, the pair find a middle ground, solving high crimes while working to avenge Guthrie's death.
We need kmele to use his billionaire contacts to make this happen.
I would watch the FUCK out of that. It would be cool, though, if somehow the whole cast of Arrested Development would be included
Ha! I was going for raspy/low voice overload. Since it's 70s-based, of course it would feature not only guest stars (fucking Bateman!) but - and I miss this about shows back then - crossovers.
My alter ego works in the entertainment industry. I do love putting together the bones of a story.
This is gold.
I would watch this
Jake sounds like he’s smoked a pack day since he was born.
H. O. T.
Seemed like a bit at first.
In eutero
Really enjoyed this interview with Archer
I couldn’t hear most of it on account of my tinnitus.
**mawp**
Very large problem with Jake's framing is that all federal bureaucrats are part of the "deep state" against Trump. In that framing, doing anything that is not what Trump wanted was being part of a shadowy cabal to undermine him. But a lot of what Trump wanted was ILLEGAL, and the bureaucrats saying, "No, we're not going to do that," were both DOING THEIR JOBS and trying to keep their own asses out of jail. The "I was just following orders" defense rings kinda hollow since 1945! It's not an accident a lot of Trump's former attorneys now have their own criminal attorneys. He kept on pushing people inside and outside of government to break the law. Time and again, between outright Muslim ban, or separating kids from families, or dozens of other things, Trump admin pressured people to do things that were illegal or would require repeal of standing regs-without getting the regs repealed. I know exactly what that feels like, it happened to me under the Bush admin, when Bush WH was lying about WMD in Iraq, and it was the job of ppl where I worked to tell the truth about it. Bush admin didn't care for anyone at CIA who said "Ahem, we don't actually know Saddam has WMD NOW-we know he USED to HAVE WMD." Bush Admin made sure CIA never said that in public assessments. Our WMD analysts were directly pressured by Dick Cheney IN PERSON to change their analysis. Don't make the mistake of thinking people in government agencies who refuse to bow to political pressure to break laws and regs are a vast conspiracy. They are most often people doing their job. If an Administration, ANY administration, wants to implement different policy, the way to do it is get Congress pass different laws, OR officially repeal and change regulations. It is not pressuring people in the agencies to ignore the laws and regs they swore an oath to uphold. When people doing their job in spite of pressure get demonized, people focus their angst on the wrong target. Don't demonize the "I refuse to break the law" ppl. Maybe attack the "you WILL break the law because I say so" ppl instead?
There’s a reason that gutting the civil service is a go to move for nascent authoritarians. This doesn’t mean that they don’t need to get taken down a peg or two on in a while but I certainly don’t mind there being different sources of power that are in tension with each other.
I’m sympathetic to Jake’s take on the intelligence community, especially Brennan(although I thought it was interesting he skipped from McCarthy to Obama, I recall there being a significant incident with a couple of talk office buildings in NYC in there that lead to a lot of unsavory intelligence stuff in the 2001-2004 range. I’ve come to accept that criticizing GOP soft targets just isn’t cool for guys like him and Taibbi, still like them just is what it is) but there are parts of the civil service that don’t deal with alleged Russian plots or COVID, in fact that’s most of the civil service. I am a civil servant, as was one of my parents and have some friends in different areas. Mostly we just go to work and try to do the stuff we are supposed to do like mitigate emergencies, enforce water standards, help Tunisia have elections, fight Mexican cartels etc. If there’s some overarching plot we didn’t get the memo or maybe were just off that day. That being said it’s always important to hold power accountable and appreciate Jake’s commitment even if he should maybe take a couple days and go for a walk in the woods or similar relaxing activity.
I'd agree. Every federal agency, including especially the intelligence community with which I'm intimately familiar, needs ongoing federal oversight-which is a problem because Congress has largely ceded their power to the executive already. Nobody made Congress do it, its just that oversight is hard, and hits on MSNBC or Fox news are easy and fun. So we get less of the former and more of the latter. Every federal agency should have an Inspector General with teeth (and I know both FBI and CIA IGs have called BS on some very serious issues-that's the process when it works). One thing that needs to happen is that the intelligence community needs to be subject to federal Whistleblower statutes. They are not right now. Yes, there needs to be a careful way to blow the whistle as they deal in secrets and life or death stuff, but secrecy shouldn't be used to cover up abuse or incompetence. Edward Snowden went public and said some very useful things-and many things he shouldn't have said-because the previous NSA whistleblower tried to do the right thing, tried to bring very legitimate concerns to Congress quietly, and the NSA went after him. Inside the intelligence community, it is all too easy to go after "troublemakers" and that needs to change. I'll criticize the intelligence community all day long for that kind of thing. But the idea that there is a coordinated "deep state" plotting to sabotage any particular president is a dark fantasy currently popular with those who've huffed too much MAGA-though ironically conspiracy theories about the deep state used to be the mainstay of the far lefties. Horseshoe theory in action.
Always interesting that in places, like this very podcast, there is philosophically a lot of emphasis placed on the value of the individual but sometimes that gets lost a little with some of the guests. Whether it’s Batya and “the working class” or Jake and “career civil servants”. Maybe it’s just hard to write a book unless you have a nice big ol monolithic group to write about?
Jacob Siegel voice - swoon...
I mean this respectfully…but he sounds like a version of Kermit the Frog who has “seen some SHIT”.
Then I'm Miss Piggy
LOL. Well played.
Kermit is more nasal (to my bad ears).
Is it too much to ask for a Jacob Siegal vs Matt Yglesias power vocals showdown?
This reminds me of a top 10 SNL sketch with Bill Haider and a puppet that has PTSD:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xZ52mG1yIo
And a combat vet. My goodness
What’s your ranking of fifth column voices?
I love my Fif' dad, cousin, and weird uncle equally.
I assume dad(Welch), cousin (kmele) and weird uncle (Moynihan).
I was hoping for a ranking of hosts and guests
Okay, we’ve found Michael’s burner account. 😜
If it was fifth column ladies then yes.
It's RFJ Jr's voice, sans the tremolo
Two words…FUCK YES!!!!!!!!!
A kernel of truth inside enormous logical leaps....
I felt Matt getting frustrated at certain points (i.e "Oct. 7th is Biden's fault??"). I share in that frustration!
I found it interesting how the end result of Jake's analysis is Trump's administration was great for America (but misses the obvious reasons why that is not true) while recent democratic presidents like Biden and Obama are deep state puppeteers.
A truly painful listen!
I'm unsure if the lack of push back by Michael is part of the philosophy of letting guests speak or he agreed with the majority of Jake's assertions...
Okay, all jokes about Kmele’s dereliction of duty aside, this was a fantastic (and dare I say…important) episode. Well done gentlemen.
Imagine how much better it would have been if I were there to round things out.
After hearing tonight’s episode with Jake, I promptly subscribed to The Fifth Column. Really good!
Welcome!
Welp, I guess I may as well as join Spencer in throwing my name in the hat to replace Kmele since he has missed enough recordings to be declared legally dead in some jurisdictions (I assume anyway). I can commit to NOT working for a Silicon Valley power broker doing…something? I also generally hate “conferences” and am willing to fly first class.
I do not have a melanin force field, but it would be a disservice to Kmele’s memory to take that into consideration when selecting his replacement. Lastly, and I hope this isn’t disqualifying, but I think the Vision Pro is dumb and would be embarrassed to be seen wearing it.
Maybe Spencer and I could split cohosting duties? I look forward to your response. Thank you for your consideration.
P.S. We love you Kmele. Almost as much as you love conferences. Almost.
But not as much as he loves his Vision
I prayed to the one true God and this dropped from heaven.
As someone who frequently posts old episodes in the comments, I am deeply offended at Moynihan calling me psychotic.
Man this guy makes some huge leaps. Interesting interview though.
Who is this "Camille" person Moynihan speaks of?
I think it's Ca-melly? Heard it said that way before
Maybe an ex-girlfriend?
Camille Grammar. Kelsey Grammar’s ex-wife and OG Real Housewife of Beverly Hills
What an amazing episode. There’s more valuable insight and information packed into this episode than there has been in the all of the “establishment” news media combined in the last eight years. Bravo JS. Fifth Column Forever
Yeah, Trump was great for middle east peace and stability if you don't count hundreds of thousands of Yemenis killed by our client states on his watch, the blockade of Qatar, or how the Abraham Accords led directly to October 7th. Otherwise a strategic genius.
The Yemen civil war started in 2014 and the Arab League coalition got involved in 2015. Most deaths were Yemeni on Yemeni so not sure how much of that is Trumps fault.
He oversaw the worst four years of it and vetoed multiple congressional attempts to end support for it. Most of the deaths were due to famine and the destruction of infrastructure caused by the Saudis and by extension, Washington. But yes, greenlighting the Saudi/UAE intervention in 2015 should be considered a permanent stain on Obama's record. He wanted to placate the Saudis after the JCPOA when he should have told them to get fucked.
Why did the Abraham Accords lead to 10/7?
Because they represented an abandonment of the longstanding, if insincere, condition that a settlement to the Israel/Palestine conflict was required for Israeli normalization with the major Arab governments. It removed the Palestinians' greatest source of leverage and incentivized them to resort to more extreme tactics.
I’m not buying it. Sidelining the Palestinians was a brilliant move, and we should move back to that posture ASAP.
The Palestinians get extremely violent when peace offers are made to them directly (2nd intifada), and when they’re sidelined (10/7). In other words, their extreme violence is always turned up to 11, regardless of what’s happening in the broader ME.
So, Israel may as well get busy livin’ and make deals with the Arabs who don’t want to see them all dead.
The Camp David "peace offer" was never a serious proposal for statehood, nor was it the only cause of the second intifada.
What would have been a “more serious” offer? What were other causes of the 2nd intifada?
One in which the Palestinian state had actual sovereignty. I.e. controlled its own borders, airspace, trade, defense, etc.
The failure of Camp David, for which both sides share the blame, was indeed a factor. The continued expansion of illegal settlements, Israel's insistence on controlling Jerusalem and Sharon's deliberate provocation at the Temple Mount were others.
I don't know, maybe. But i'm more inclined to believe that 10/07 was due to the world's eye not being firmly focused on that specific region of the Middle East. On October 6,, people were still focused on Ukraine,
Though, hell, the UN has now recognized Palestinian statehood, and not sure that would have happened without October 7th and its aftermath
My read was that the net _effect_ of the T man's admin policies were helpful towards US middle east policy, and that was / is related to the sort of reptilian "alpha" approach which the T man happens to bring, rather than some kind of genius. More like credit where credit is due, looking at the world as it is, regardless of how we got here (or there as it were, being 2016-2020).
Also the most drone strikes of any president in history and signed an executive order to decrease public transparency surrounding US drone killings.